Matt:
Given the recording it is certainly a Trumpeter.
Shawneen
On May 17, 2015, at 12:20 PM, Russ Namitz <namitzr@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Matt,
I think you are right. I'm sorry that I haven't devoted much time to this and
I still haven't listened to the voice recording. But looking at your photos I
think that I was wrong and agree that Sibley illustrates the wide end of the
spectrum. Misfire!
There is a photo of a Trumpeter and Tundra side-by-side in the new North
American Birds. The labeled Trumpeter looks near identical to Umpqua bird.
Russ
Sent from my iPhone
On May 16, 2015, at 22:35, Matthew G Hunter <matthewghunter@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:matthewghunter@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I have not gotten any response from those who were leaning toward Tundra
Swan since putting up my additional photos and voice recording. I'm
interested to hear if the new photos/voice has changed your mind. All other
feedback and my own evaluation of visible and audible evidence point toward
Trumpeter Swan. I especially value the opinion of Gary Ivey, long-time
wetland biologist and Trumpeter Swan person, who says that while the visible
characteristics are tough, they still point to Trumpeter, and "the call
nails it."
Photos of the Bird:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157652342825501/
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157652342825501/>
Voice Recording of the Bird:
http://www.umpquabirds.org/Swan-Voice_002.mp3
<http://www.umpquabirds.org/Swan-Voice_002.mp3>
On the visible characteristics, I think a comparison of my photos with those
of Mike Cooper's ... well, it almost looks like Mike and I took photos of
the same Trumpeter Swan....
Mike Cooper's Photo Comparison:
https://plus.google.com/photos/115034239948976665633/albums/5440850591868559089?banner=pwa
<https://plus.google.com/photos/115034239948976665633/albums/5440850591868559089?banner=pwa>
Sibley's illustrations and notes (below), are obviously helpful, but upon
looking at scores of photos, I believe Sibley has illustrated more toward
the extreme, and certainly not the norm for either species (especially with
regard to the "widow's peak"). That's not a criticism, just a "calibration"
for the mind.
Sibley's Illustrations and Notes:
http://www.sibleyguides.com/2006/02/distinguishing-trumpeter-and-tundra-swans/
<http://www.sibleyguides.com/2006/02/distinguishing-trumpeter-and-tundra-swans/>
I take the data in eBird seriously, and I want to continue to grow in my
ability to ID swans, which is why I have made this effort. I hope you find
this helpful as well. If you have any further thoughts, I would appreciate
hearing.
Matt Hunter
541-670-1984 <tel:541-670-1984>
BTW, in May a couple years ago, a likely immature Trumpeter Swan (quite gray
plumage flying down the S. Umpqua River) was seen by me. A year or two later
a Trumpeter was seen on the Roseburg CBC. And now this bird. I'm wondering
if it is the same individual just wandering around.
=====================================================
ALL RESPONSES/REPLIES I RECEIVED ARE BELOW, pretty much in chronological
order:
=====================================================
I certainly would call this a Trumpeter. Based on size and shape of bill,
shape of the head, thickness of the neck, and thickness of the black lores.
[Greg Haworth]
===============
Perhaps you have other opinions by now, but this looks fine for a Trump to
me too.
- Dave [Hewitt]
==================
Greetings All,
Shawneen and I (having just returned from 9 days in AZ) are arriving late to
this party, but we just looked at this bird and neither of us would be
comfortable calling it a Trumpeter. The black in front of the eye is very
"pinched" in our opinion, rather than extending back to the eye in an evenly
tapered "V". The bill looks large like a Trumpeter's, but both of us have
been fooled before. Looking at the most front-on view, I don't see any
suggestion of the widow's peak above the bill. Where the white feathering
meets the top of the bill it looks quite rounded.
Dave Irons
================
I chased this bird from eBird, snapped bunch of distant photos and then had
to leave.
Upon closer scrutiny, I think that I am leaning towards Tundara Swan as well.
I would disagree that the shape of the forehead looks "quite rounded" and
would say that this bird is closer to a V, but not quite as sharp as Sibley
depicts.
http://www.sibleyguides.com/2006/02/distinguishing-trumpeter-and-tundra-swans/
<http://www.sibleyguides.com/2006/02/distinguishing-trumpeter-and-tundra-swans/>
What bothered me in the field was the amount of curvature from the bottom
of the eye down to the chin. This curvature is typical for Tundra and
should be straighter on Trumpeter. Also the skin area where it meets the
eye should be broader. The "pinched" eye profile was not easy to see on the
distant bird, but the head-on profile photo fits better with the Sibley
depiction.
Thanks for taking a closer look, I almost swept this one under the rug.
Russ
===============
I'm late to the game here, but I agree that it is most likely a Tundra, for
the various reasons outlined by others below. In addition, I have noticed
that commissural structure (that is the biting edge of the bill) on
Trumpeters is different from Tundras. The bill flares out a bit more toward
the tip and can show more of the lamellae than typically apparent on a
Tundra. Kind of think of it as a Greater vs Lesser Scaup type of difference.
Also, usually Trumpeters seem to be much more long-necked than this bird but
that is tough to judge in photos and without seeing the full range of
postures. At Finley, misidentification of swans is a common problem. I think
Trumpeters are reported much more often than they actually occur, so it's a
common ID conundrum.
Doug [Robinson]
================
Hi All
I agree it looks good for Tundra!
Brian [Sullivan]
=================
Hi Matt,
Did you consider Loch Ness Monster as a possibility? ;-) That idea comes
from looking at the photo where the wave is above the base of the neck.
I went back & forth a bit since there are a few strange/borderline things
about this bird. It looks like it may have run into some oil or other muck
which has not only stained the upper neck & head, but is kind of matting
down the feathers. But here's a run through my checklist of things that I
try to look at:
Bill profile - long enough and straight enough to be a Trumpeter. Too long
and not dished-out enough for nearly all Tundras.
Lores/eye - bead of eye is almost contained within the wedge of bare skin
rather than hanging out behind the pinch point, so also favorable for
Trumpeter (but kind of borderline, I almost went the other way).
Feathered/skin border of cheek - no sharp curvature and not as
perpendicular to lower jaw as I'd expect on Tundra, a little more curved
than I like to see on Trumpeters but some female Trumpeters look like this.
Feathering on forehead - I never rely on this in the field, mostly because
it's hard to see. I'm always surprised when I hear birders using this, since
it seems like something that could easily be altered when they're mucking
around in the mud. On this bird I'd be doubly wary because of the goop on
its feathers. So although I see the observer noted this in their
description, I don't place much stock in this.
Back shape - gradually and symmetrically domed, no strongly goose-like hump
as on Tundra, this is a strong point for Trumpeter.
Head shape - Peak of the head looks OK for Trumpeter but I don't trust this
due to the oiling effect, so skip this one.
Neck length - The main thing that bugs me is that the neck looks a little
short for a Trumpeter. However as you know I don't deal with a lot of swans
on water, and I think that in this kind of alert swimming posture, part of
the neck bends down below the waterline. Plus there seems to be quite a bit
of chop that could further obscure the base of the neck even in the best
views. Also female Trumpeters are a little less extreme in neck length.
Neck shape - I don't really trust my impressions of neck shape due to the
oiling effect. Sometimes Trumpeters have a sinewy look, and I think I see a
bit of that. The bird is holding its neck somewhat straight for a Trumpeter
but I've come to believe that this is partly a function of bird size --
female Trumpeters are less inclined to "lay their lower neck back" on the
top of their backs, like the big male Trumpeters will do.
So overall, everything on this bird lines up for a Trumpeter, though
probably a smallish female, definitely not one of the really big male
Trumpeters. I don't see any trait that points strongly toward Tundra.
My backup choice is Nessie ;-)
Joel
===============================
I say trumpeter based on thick triangle bill and wide black to the eye. I
live in MI where we have both species.
Andy Dettling
===========================
Hi Matt,
I think you guys were correct in your original assessment of this swan being
a Trumpeter. The long, straight and somewhat tapering neck fit TRUS as well
as the largish head, V-shaped forecrown, the broad bare skin patch in front
of the eye, and gently sloping bill. The neck appears to plunge into the
water ahead of the breast, while Tundra almost always has a breast bulge at
the base of the neck. I'll be interested in hearing what other experienced
birders seem to think about this bird. Thanks for sharing with us.
Cheers,
Justin Bosler
============================
AT THIS POINT I ADDED MORE/BETTER PHOTOS AND A VOICE RECORDING AND REQUESTED
MORE FEEDBACK FROM OReBIRD AND IDF.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157652342825501/
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewghunter/sets/72157652342825501/>
http://www.umpquabirds.org/Swan-Voice_002.mp3
<http://www.umpquabirds.org/Swan-Voice_002.mp3>
============================
I am impressed by your persistence on this bird! And the photos still don't
bother me for Trump, that's what I would have called it. The feather line on
the top of the bill looks "V"ed to me, fairly obviously so. I don't know
about that calling you recorded as I always hear swans here in a noisy mass.
- Dave [Hewitt]
====================
Matt,
Looks like a Trumpeter Swan to me, based on the straight culmen and very
angular head. I realize the eye is somewhat isolated (black skin pinched
creating a separate-eye appearance), but otherwise, it seems pretty clear.
Matthew Dodder
Mountain View, CA
=============================
Hi, Matt:
I've been looking at your swan images on Frontiers, and I must say I have
trouble seeing anything but a normal Trumpeter Swan. Here at St. Louis we
have a wintering population of Trumpeters that has grown to nearly 1000, and
it always includes a small number of Tundras, usually in the 5-20 range,
many of which have little or no yellow before the eye. So we do a lot of
comparing at close range.
Your bird seems to have a large, strongly triangular bill (meaning the
culmen is straight), and there is no distinct separation of the eye from the
region of black facial skin. Further, the head-on shots show strongly
pointed feathering across the base of the bill; this can be doubtful or
intermediate in some birds, but the shape on yours looks definite.
The voice recording is marginal, as you say, but it does sound like the
simple, low honk of a Trumpeter to me.
To me it seems that your bird fits my own experience of Trumpeters just
fine, and also fits all the standard criteria on e.g. Sibley's web site.
Hope this is consistent with other people's comments.
Best,
Bill Rowe
St. Louis, MO
======================
Not sure what else to add but I would never call this bird a Tundra. The
bill is very large and you could match a ruler from the forehead to the tip
of the bill. Tundra have a significant dip down at about a 1/3 of the way
into the bill, ie there would be a big gap between the ruler and bill.
I didn't listen to the call as that's not my strong suit.
Andy [Dettling]
=======================
Matt,
Certainly looks and sounds like a Trumpeter. When I see Trumpeters they are
often by themselves...Tundras are more gregarious.
Mike Schwitters
Choteau, Montana
=======================
Hi Matt,
I'm not sure what the debate is about. Seems to be a straight forward
Trumpeter Swan.
Cheers,
Christian Nunes
Boulder, CO
=======================
Hi Matthew- good to hear from you.
Well, I'm far from great at Swan ID, seeing just a smattering here in CO and
in my travels.
I have to say that if I saw and heard that bird I'd be thinking Trumpeter-
calls sound low, lores seem thick, forehead profile looks pointed, etc. I
know lots of Trumpeters I see have head & neck staining, too, but I'm not
sure how often that is seen in Pac NW Tundra swans. Seems like even
dark-lored Tundras have some minute pale patch upon close inspection but not
seeing any of that. But I know that this can be a tricky ID, especially
with the possibility of a totally black-lored Tundra and when individual
birds show up with nothing to directly compare to.
What are some of the arguments people have made in favor of Tundra?
Best- Bill [Schmoker, CO]
================
Hi Matt,
The swan society forwarded your request to me last week. Sorry for not
responding sooner. The Photos suggest a trumpeter, and that call is a
trumpeter.
Gary [Ivey]
===================
Matt,
The call nails it. This one is a bit tough, but the photos showing the V
shape of the feathers on the forehead between the eyes (as opposed to more
of a rounded shape) and the eye not looking distinct from the bill mask are
good trumpeter characters.
Sincerely,
Gary Ivey
=================
