It's totally a Cackler, Jim. What I call a "True" Cackler (minima) and what I saw Wayne Hoffman call a "real" Cackler earlier this month. Keep up the good work, Wayne. The ABA can perform as many unnatural acts as they wish, some folks have a grip. Lars OBOL archives: www.freelists.org/archive/obol Manage your account or unsubscribe: //www.freelists.org/list/obol Contact moderators: obol-moderators@xxxxxxxxxxxxx