In a message dated 5/28/2014 9:08:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes in "Re: My Friends the Baboons": "My posts tried to explain why [the baboon case] is not an example of "group selection" but must be, in Darwinian terms, an example of "kin selection". As such it is not a counter-example to the view that "nothing is 'selected for' via its removal from the gene-pool": on the contrary, it must be an example of something 'selected for' because - and only because - of how it protects the same "genes" from removal from the gene-pool. Anyone who disputes this is disputing that an orthodox Darwinian explanation applies or is showing that they do not really understand the character of Darwinian explanation. It would, I suggest, take much more than a single uncorroborated story of the baboon type to challenge "the orthodox Darwinian view": just as we would not replace that Darwinian view because a Walt Disney nature documentary told us that bees sting to protect the hive because they are selfless like human soldiers sacrificing their lives for the greater good of the group. For the record, below, the references to the Wikipedia's entry on group selection -- since perhaps we should distinguish: -- the concept itself. -- an analysis of the concept itself. -- the use of the concept alla Darwin. -- the use of the concept elsewhere -- other. It seems such a philosophical analysis is attempted in the "Unto others" book referred to below. Cheers, Speranza Bergstrom, T.C. "Evolution of Social Behavior: Individual and Group Selection" Journal of Economic Perspectives 16 Bijma, P.; Muir, W.M.; Van Arendonk, J.A.M. "Multilevel Selection 1: Quantitative Genetics of Inheritance and Response to Selection". Genetics 175 Bijma, P.; Muir, W.M.; Ellen, E. D.; Wolf, Jason B.; Van Arendonk, J.A.M. "Multilevel Selection 2: Estimating the Genetic Parameters Determining Inheritance and Response to Selection". Genetics 175 Boyd, R.; Richerson, P.J. "Group Beneficial Norms Spread Rapidly in a Structured Population" (PDF). Journal of Theoretical Biology 215 West, S.A.; Griffin, A.S.; Gardner, A. "Social semantics: how useful has group selection been?". Journal of Evolutionary Biology 21 Sober, Elliott and Wilson, David Sloan. Unto Others: The Evolution and Psychology of Unselfish Behavior. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. Soltis, J.; Boyd, R.; Richerson, P.J. "Can Group-functional Behaviors Evolve by Cultural Group Selection? An Empirical Test" (PDF). Current Anthropology 63 Wilson, D. S. (1987). "Altruism in Mendelian populations derived from sibling groups: The haystack model revisited". Evolution 41 . Wilson, D.S. Human groups as adaptive units: toward a permanent consensus. In P. Carruthers, S. Laurence & S. Stich (Eds.), The Innate Mind: Culture and Cognition. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html