"And to relate this a little more to the ancient Greeks, there is no conflict between doing all to the glory of God and training for or fighting a war. Representation had a place in the Trojan War. Heroes were asked to represent their respective sides." Indeed. In any case, there must be something about "American" football. I seem to have found the lyric in a Japanese website mentioned below. ----- Re: representation, I enjoyed your comments. I was reading this book by Archetti, "Masculinities in Polo" (he teaches at some continental university -- continent of Europe that is -- and trust them to use 'masculinities' if a book is to sell in academia nowadays. Anyway, Archetti did some good research into the polo tradition of Buenos Aires. I was pleasantly surprised to read the very many manuscript notes, by one John Trail, who 'competed' in the Olympics with polo. Yep, them's were the days. In any case, Traill being some sort of an Anglo (or Anglo-Argentine), he eventually had to represent England -- rather than Argentina. And he accepted to do so, on condition, the records show, that the English team were not to play against the Argentine team. A dual 'loyalty' like that was indeed a minus for Mr. Traill --. I should revise the winners at the Olympics (of Ancient Greece). From what I recall, there's a record of the NAME of the winner ('individual glory') as it were, but _also_ the 'town and village' they came from. Sorry Riverside County sounds so parochial. It's fascinating though how loyalties change and representativeness nobody gives a damn anymore. Think Stephen Beckman, playing for something like Orange County! -- and the Born-within-the-Sound-of-Bow-Bells soccer hero made his claim to fame in Manchester! (Or was it Arsenal?) ---- You are right that the desire to lose is not normal. I suppose this leads us back to volunteer versus conscript, and how one's motives may be 'impure' and all that (if it's the desire of money that is the root of all evil). Talking of games, though, we should pay a little tribute to Joan Huizinga. He wrote this boring book, "Homo Ludens", which must be some Graeco-Classical root to it. While not talking of team sport and competitive spirit, his idea -- taken on later by psychologists -- is that 'game' is the idyllic child's scenario where no external pressures are permitted. Watching a 'kid' playing with another 'kid' in not necessarily competitive 'games' may be something that seems more remotely connected with the atavistic or ancestral _hunting_ (and thus warlike) drive. Hunting (aggressive towards one's potential food) should be distinguished from violence of the type (defense/offense) memorized by Hobbes in "man is a wolf to another man" (very difficult to conceptualize metaphor if you ask me). Cheers, J. L. Speranza Buenos Aires, Argentina _http://tkoj.blogspot.com/2005/07/im-tko-in-ladys-boudior.html_ (http://tkoj.blogspot.com/2005/07/im-tko-in-ladys-boudior.html) Some lines seem missing. But the CD is always available for those interested. Note the typical music-hall (or 'vaudeville' burlesque as it's also called) with things like the 'centre' and the letters for his 'stuff'. In the last version of the refrain he seems to replace 'dog' by 'bear'. I'm not a football hero but I'M A BEAR IN A LADY'S BOUDOIR Words and Music by Cliff Edwards 1930 --- Rec. and compiled in CD, "Listen to the Banned" -- Risque songs of the 20s and 30s. VERSE 1 You may talk about your colleges, -- Fair Harvard and old Yale. All the Universities whose banners brave the gale. It's the football players as their glory and renown. REFRAIN I never went to college but I know I've been to town. I may not be a football player but I'm a star with a beautiful girl. VERSE 2 You never see me in the thick of a fight I do my scoring mostly at night. I never tackle any dummy I've played from near and far, REFRAIN 2 no I ain't, no I'm not a football hero, but I'm a bear in a lady's boudior. VERSE 2 They football on the gridiron where the ground is rough and hard. I do my playing on the dival, the ladies all say I'm a triple-threat man. Refrain 2 I never have to call for time out For I'm always up to par. oh I ain't, no I'm not a football hero, but I'm a bear in a lady's boudior. VERSE 3 I never fought for "Alma Mater", because *she* never fought for _me_. They boys get a letter for not playing rough I should get an alphabet for doing my stuff. I'm pretty good a centre rushing That's the place I really start. Oh I may not be, I'm not a football hero But I'm a dog in a lady's boudior. ----- J. L. Speranza, Esq. Town: Calle Arenales 2021, Piso 5, St. 8, La Recoleta C1124AAE, Buenos Aires, Argentina. Tel. 54 11 4824 4253 Fax 54 221 425 9205 Country: St. Michael Hall, Calle 58, No. 611, La Plata B1900 BPY Provincia de Buenos Aires, Argentina. Tel. 54 221 425 7817 Fax 54 221 425 9205 http://www.stmichaels.com.ar jls@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx jlsperanza@xxxxxxx http://www.netverk/~jls.htm **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)