D. Ritchie writes: >Sticks. Bundles of sticks, symbols of strength through unity. >But I'm thinking you know this...so why the >uncertainty? >Is there something more that we need to know about "fasces"? Nay, ... but I'm thinking... Fascinating stuff, though. >Bundles of sticks, symbols of strength through unity. Well, I think we have *two* different notions, here. Anachronistically, I'll start with D. Ritchie's "strength through unity". That was apparently Mussolini's idea when he coined 'fascism' -- but _that_ sense derives from 'fascio' being a 'group of [initially Sicilian] street fighters. The 'bundle of sticks' is the original Roman law term, where the singular would be 'fascis', a bundle of something quite specific as D. Ritchie notes, 'sticks', or as Plaut. has it "virgarum" (Epistolae, Loeb). I would think each criminal would carry _one_ and no more than one bundle (hence the singular in the subject-line, fascis). So what I see is some semantic confusion in Mussolini, and perhaps it's just as well since both _his_ idea and the original Roman one were pretty misconceived (not to say sadomasochistic) I especially do NOT like the Italian 'fascio' deriving from Latin "fascium". This masculinization of the neuter was something _pretty_ vulgar, if you axe me. It seems obvious that for the Romans, 'fascis' was a _feminine_ noun, never neuter or masculine. More below. Cheers, J. L. Buenos Aires, Argentina. Apparently there is no connection (semantic) between It. 'fascio', from Popular or Vulgar Latin, 'fascium', a bundle -- and 'fasces'. For the Romans it was short for a bundle of sticks as you say, or fagots. But for the provincial Mussolinis, it was a _bundle_ of people -- a sort of right-wing terrorist group. I tried an advanced search with the OED for 'fasces', and 'fascism' and I'm sure I've read somewhere of the connection of Mussolini's dillusions with the Roman past, but in _this_ case, there's no Augustan past to it. But you too knew that. Interestingly the quote for 'fasci' (first) is from the E. B (after 'fasci dei lavoratori, Sicilia, 1895): To produce in Sicily a discontent of which Socialist agitators took advantage to organize the workmen of the towns and the peasants of the country into groups known as fasci. 1902 Encycl. Brit. XXIX. 649/1 Apparently, Mussolini and Gentile were aware of the _polysemy_ when they coined the -ism ("Fascism") or so I read in Wikipedia: fascismo was coined by Mussolini and Gentile. It is derived from (a) fascio, which means "union" or "league", and (b) from the Latin word _fasces_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces) . These consisted of a bundle of rods tied around an axe, and were an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of the civic magistrates, and the symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break. --- But it seems that it was he/she, a criminal, to be flogged who carries these "sticks" with which the magistrate would flog (or scourge) him/her, before behading him/her (hence the axe). Wikipedia continues: ['fascismo'] is also strongly associated with the Italian word "fasci" meaning streetfighter. But that would be a derivation from (a) above. It would be interesting to pursue the etym. note in Short and Lewis: "fascis" Etym. cfr. "phakelos", fascia, but v. "fido"] But I fail to see what a good dog has to do with it (cf. 'faith'). The 'phakelos' strikes me as Greek and perhaps Pindaric. As to the _senses_ (a) and (b) in the Wikipedia, I see that "fascis", in the online Short/Lewis, I see that the definition is merely 'bundle', not of sticks. Short/Lewis are never too careful, and they write 'etc', after reeds: So one can imagine an expansion alla Geary/Borges: fascis: bundle of wood, twigs, straws, reeds, people. fascis , is, m. [cf. phakelos, fascia, but v fido] bundle -- of wood, twigs, straw, reeds, etc. fagot, fascine; a packet, parcel. Short and Lewis do have 'fascis' as short for 'a crowd of people', Vulg. Isa. 24, 22.-- where the reference is to the Bible! In partic., in plur. fasces, a bundle [of rods -- virgarum] carried before the highest magistrates, and consisting of rods and an axe, with which criminals were scourged and beheaded. The only author who cares to specify what the fasces are fasces of is Plautus: fasces _virgarum_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=virgarum&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04 .0059) , Plaut. Ep. 1, 1, 26 In Caesar it seems it's a bundle of laurel leaves? _neque_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=neque&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) in _litteris_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=litteris&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) , _neque_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=neque&bytepos= 40662089&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) in _fascibus_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=fascibus&bytepos= 40662089&wordcount=5&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) insignia _laureae_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=laureae&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) _praetulit_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=praetulit&bytep os=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) , Caes. B. C. 3, 71, 3 ; Also in Cicero, _Marius_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=Marius&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) cum _fascibus_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=fascibus&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=6&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) _laureatis_ (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=la&lookup=laureatis&bytepos=40662089&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0059) , Cic. Div. 1, 28, 59 ; hence, things like "poet laureate" Now, the OED defines a 'fasces' as "a bundle of rods bound up with an axe in the middle and its blade projecting. These rods were carried by lictors before the superior magistrates at Rome as an emblem of their power." The quotes may be of interest so here they go: <NOB R. GRENEWEY translating Tacitus' Annales (Loeb Classical Library) I. iii. (1622) 5 The fasces or knitch of rods. 1713 SWIFT The Faggot, In history we never found The consuls' fasces were unbound. 1879 FROUDE Cæsar xxiii. 401 The consular fasces, the emblem of the hated Roman authority. In Heraldics, used as a badge. 1889 ELVIN Dict. Her. s.v. Fascis, The Fasces [of laurel leafs, rather than the lictor thing, I would assume. JLS] are now frequently given to those who have held magisterial offices transf. and fig. The ensigns of authority or power, esp. in to take, lay down, resign the fasces, hence also, authority. 1619 BEAUM. & FL. Valentinian V. v, He must take the fasces. 1666 DRYDEN Ann. Mirab. 199 The Duke..shook aloft the Fasces of the Main. 1673 WOOD Life (1848) 184 The senr. proctor..laid down the fasces of his authority. 1797 BURKE Let. Affairs Irel. Wks. 1812 V. *321 You must submit your fasces to theirs. 1792 S. ROGERS Pleas. Mem. I. 292 Diocletian's self-corrected mind The imperial fasces of a world resigned. 1827 MACAULAY Machiav. Ess. (1854) 49/2 He pines for..the fasces of Brutus. Also, the punishments threatened by the fasces; flogging or beheading. [So there seems to be a mixing of senses here -- the garland or wreath worn by the victor, and the signal of a punishment to come. JLS] 1641 R. BROOKE Eng. Episc. II. vii. 109 That Tragedy, whose Epilogue was Flame and Fagot, or at least the Fasces to younger men. humorously. The birch rod. 1762 FOOTE Orator I. Wks. 1799 I. 197 The fescues and fasces..have been..consigned to one, or more matron in every village. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com