Walter Okshevsky wrote: "I'm desperately trying to keep the discussion secular and humanist, as K. himself did." The conversation began with the question of why people think Kant had a problem with consequences. I suggested that Kant felt it was a big enough problem that he had to involve God to fix it. It is the problem that I am interested in here, not God. Kant makes clear that pure and practical reason belong to separate realms where the first is defined by necessity and the second by freedom. The basic problem with 'If we ought to do it, we can do it' is that it presumes a relationship between the two realms without explaining it. Neither pure nor practical reason can describe how the two relate. Nor is this empty speculation. People don't do what they ought to do and so it can't be taken as obvious that a necessary relationship between the moral universe and nature exists. An obligation may place an agent under a necessity, but it remains a moral necessity not one belonging to nature. If it also belonged to nature, people would necessarily do what they ought to do. Instead people do not do what they ought to do. Therefore the necessity of the moral universe applies to the human being as a moral agent, not a natural being. We cannot draw from this necessity any conclusions regarding the natural world without committing a category mistake, confusing the moral universe with the natural world. That the moral law commands entails, in and of itself, nothing regarding what is possible in the world. Again, the moral law may demand obedience, but people may or may not obey. This dichotomy drives Kant to all sorts of nonsense in _Religion Within the Limits_ as he tries to explain why people don't obey. Furthermore, there are all sorts of problems in the claim that the necessity of the moral universe has any causal influence on the necessity of nature. How is the moral universe a cause in the natural world? It isn't that the obligation is impossible but rather that it is empty, lacking any causal power in the world. A man who believes he is Napoleon leading his army into battle may command all he likes but the fact that he commands doesn't mean there is necessarily an army that obeys. But it is even more complicated. What makes a series of experiences a moral event? Experience follows the necessity of nature. It could be that any moral quality belonging to experience is epiphenomenal, added by practical reason but not belonging to the experience proper. After all, Kant refuses to leave matters of the law to individual discernment. If this is the case, then virtually any experience could, on some interpretation, represent obedience to the moral law. Is it possible for there to be reasonable disagreement regarding how one obeys the moral law? Yes, one shouldn't make lying-promises to promote self-interest, but can there be disagreement on whether a specific instance does or does not promote self-interest? Imagine someone tells a lie but believes it does not promote self-interest. Someone else disagrees and suggests how the lie, in some way, gave some advantage. How is the moral status of the event determined? Is it up to the individual? A neutral observer? The person to whom the lie was told? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all since the consequences that followed from telling the lie are independent of the question whether the individual acted from the moral law. If that is the case, though, then one must give up the claim that there is a connection between the necessity of the moral law and what is possible in the world. As I suggested earlier, I believe that Kant recognized this problem and gave at least two different responses. The first was to deny any significance to consequences. This, however, had the effect of creating an unbridgeable chasm between pure and practical reason, between the natural world and the moral universe. The second was to postulate a Supreme Cause that ensured everything fit together. This, however, was also unacceptable to Kant, if for no other reason then he despised religion. The problem is fundamental and can be put as simply as, Why should we be moral? Kant contributed a great deal to moral thought, but he could not, to his satisfaction, answer this question. Sincerely, Phil Enns Toronto, ON ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html