[laffs] Fw: Lithium Battery Danger
- From: "Gene Hatfield" <hatter@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "LAFFS MEMBERS" <laffs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "John Gray" <john@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Jim Stalcup" <manatee@xxxxxxxx>, "Gene Hatfield" <hatter@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dick Risk" <rjrisk@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Clem Miller" <clemannm@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "C W Holt" <holt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:56:47 -0500
Subject: Lithium Battery Danger
HOME PHOTOZINE GALLERIES MY GALLERY HELP
MY HOME PM MEMBERS 224 ONLINE CALENDAR SEARCH REGISTER
NEW SUBS
NEW
NEW 4 pages [ << < ( 1 ) 2 3 NEXT >>
] 5897 views POST REPLY
ZoomsHobbies HeliHobby Bergen R/C Helicopters
Main Discussion > Lithium Danger.... Please read
Paulsworld
Status: Veteran
Registered: May 2002
Location: Lake Zurich,IL. This is for all of you guys
out there just getting into Micro Helis,like myself, who have heard how
dangerous Litho batteries are but never encountered or considered the fire
hazards.
I just got my first Micro,a Hornet2 about a month ago.
I traded a good guy here,and it came with all the necessary equipment to get it
flying including a Lithium-Ion charger. I have been wroking on this heli for
about 3 weeks working out the kinks and getting familiar with the heli as a
whole. I had a friend help me assemble the pack, 2 Etec 1200 litho cells. I
also purchased a 3 cell pack from Deetee as a spare and had been primarily
using the 3 cell pack to test fly and such.
Today I used the 2 cell pack...hovered a while until
the battery discharged and promptly brought the heli done in the workshop for a
recharge. Plugged it in and went and played some PS2 with my son.
About 30 minutes later, the smoke detectors went off.
As I yelled for my wife to bring all the kids in the basement upstairs, I ran
to the workshop and found 3 large fires burning. One where the Hornet used to
be, one on a center bench under a Q500 airplane and one directly under 2
helicopters on a plastic shelf. What confused me was I could understand the
fire where the Hornet was, I was very worried and confused to see 2 other fires
2 and 6 feet away from the source fire.
I ran back upstairs, told my wife to get the kids
completely out of the house and got a fire extinguisher. On the way back down I
told myself I was only going to give this one serious attempt to put out, I
could barely breath and my ego isn't to large where being a dead hero would
keep me down there. I hit the 3 fires hard,ran back outside and got some air.
Convinced I had the fires out, I went back down, but
the smoke was so intense I could get back far enough to the work shop to
confirm the fire was out. Dialed 911.
Turned out I was right...the fire was out indeed. But
what the hell happened???? How did the fire jump from one bench to the other
and then another 3 feet to start another fire??? The firefighters were at a
loss... Finally the small burn marks in the carpet told the tale..The batteries
had exploded.
As I sat in the shower after the fire dept left, and
just tried to mellow out, it hit me. The battery charger I use has jumpers on
it to determine how many cells and what charge rate you want. Please make sure
your cell jumper is set properly, mine wasn't and I almost burned down my house
because of it. I had the jumper set for a three cell pack and was charging a 2
cell pack. This fire happened in 30 minutes tops and anything flamable within 6
feet started on fire.
I'm lucky. The Hornet is completely melted, the
airplane is repairable and the other 2 helis are just scorched not to mention
all the powered for the extinguisher that covers everything. My house stinks.
I'm a mental disaster. BUT,my family is safe, thats all that matters anyway.
BE CAREFUL with those jumpers guys. These batteries are
real serious real quick. Paul
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE GALLERY Attn: RR
Naomi
Status: Elite Veteran
Registered: Dec 2001
Location: CANADA Damn! That was pretty scary.. poor
micro.. toast!
Proud Member of RunRyder Rotary Enthusiast
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE GALLERY Attn: RR
CDN Marvin
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada That sucks! That
is why I keep an eye on the battery and voltage display when I am charging
lithiums.
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
skybolt10
Status: Heliman
Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Camp Page, Korea Man, you one lucky dud. I
think I would think about different battery packs. Good luck.
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE Attn: RR
Greg_Alderman
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA Bummer
Glad that is all the damage. It is amazing how fast a
fire can spread and grow in a confined space...been first to the scene in a
couple of small fires on submarines over the years that could have gotten out
of control very quickly with out a quick blast of CO2.
Good save!!!
BTW........I go to my local Batteries Plus to get my
battery bars and such for all my packs I make. I asked the other day if they
carried or could order Li-PO cells and they told me "no" as they needed to be
licensed to carry that type of battery because of the fire and explosive
hazards associated with Li-PO's. They also told me that I would also need to
have the same cert. to buy and build my own packs?
Anyone else heard of this...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
Glenn in Den
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: May 2003
Location: Longmont, Colorado area One extra cell set on
the charger . . . .what does that add . . . 4 volts to the charge??? That's all
it takes to set your house on fire????
Sheesh! We might as well be working with plutonium!!
Good job on how you handled it. It could have been far
worse all the way around.
Call your insurance company..... I saw the remains of a
couple of very expensive 90 sized machines, some carbon blades, all electronics
. . .
Glenn.
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE Attn: RR
helicrasher
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Belgium Sorry to hear about the fire, happy
nobody is hurt.
I think they should take out all those manual chargers
with jumpers and only allow fully automatic chargers for those lipo's, way to
dangerous.
Of course these automatic chargers can also have a
malfunction, but the danger is less.
I use a metal container to charge my LIPO and charge
them always outdoors.
I also use the fully automatic ORBITH pro charger, who
stops after 3 hours of charging.
Mario
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
r2helis
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Western Colorado It could have been much
worse...
Those smoke detectors are worth every penny. You just
never know when they will be needed. Good job putting the fire out.
Pound for Pound, Heli's are a blast..... Roland
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE Attn: RR
Sealerman
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Long Island, New York. Hey,
I always use the thermal censor that came with the
charger when charging LiPos it shuts the charger down if the batteries hits the
temp you program.
I heard this has happens lot, I'm glad your family is
ok. Will the wife let you play anymore.
Sealerman
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
Cassini
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Enterprise, AL For those people that have
chargers that sense how many cells you are charging automatically don't think
you are any safer than one set manually with jumpers. They too can guess wrong
and end like this.
Never charge Lithium cells unattended and allways have
a fire extinguisher handy. Also charge them in a fire-safe container like a
pyrex dish or a ceramic pot.
Good lesson to be learned here and thanks for sharing
with everyone so they too can get some respect for these batteries.
When Lithiums go, they swell before they 'explode' and
give you a short chance to maybe get under control or at least contain it more.
Lithiums that do blow can shoot firey material up to
about 20 feet!
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
rc-whirlybird
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Apr 2003
Location: Detroit area Michigan/US Another post on
rc-groups
http://www.rc-groups.com/forums/show...15&pagenumber=6
And here from allerc.com wrote before you can get in to
the Lipo batteries section.
====================
Please review our Battery Warning and click the
agreement below.
Safety Precautions for Lithium Polymer, NiMh and NiCD
cells or battery packs offered by Allerc.com.
1. Never fast-charge any battery type unattended.
2. Never charge Li-Po cells/packs at any rate
unattended.
3. Only charge Li-Po cells/packs with a charger
designed specifically for lithium polymer chemistry. Example chargers include
the Kokam USA, LIPO 402, LIPO 102 and LIPO 202; Apache S1215 and S1500; Great
Planes Triton; and Schulze chargers with lithium charging capability.
4. Li-Po cells can ignite because of unmatched cell
capacity or voltage, cell damage, charger failure, incorrect charger settings
and other factors.
5. Always use the correct charging voltage. Li-Po cells
or battery packs may ignite if connected to a charger supplying more than 6
volts per cell.
6. Always assure the charger is working properly.
7. Always charge Li-Po cells or battery packs where no
harm can result, no matter what happens. We suggest a brick box or likeness.
Have sand handy in a bucket for any need to extinguish any fire. NEVER use
water on any cells or battery pack.
8. Never charge a cell/pack in a model. A hot pack may
ignite wood, foam, plastic, etc.
9. Never charge a cell/pack inside a motor vehicle, or
in a vehicle's engine compartment.
10. Never charge a cell/pack on a wooden workbench, or
on any flammable material.
11. If a cell/pack is involved in a crash:
a. Remove the cell or battery pack from the model.
b. Carefully inspect the cell or battery pack for
shorts in the wiring or connections. If in doubt, cut all wires from the cell
or battery pack.
c. Disassemble the pack.
d. Inspect cells for dents, cracks and splits. Dispose
of damaged cells (see below).
12. Dispose of cells or battery packs as follows:
a. Discharge: with the cell or battery pack in a safe
area, connect a moderate resistance across the terminals until the cell or
battery pack is discharged. CAUTION: the cell or battery pack may be hot!
b. Discarding Instructions:
- NiMH: place in regular trash.
- NiCd: recycle (cadmium is toxic).
- Li-Po: puncture plastic envelope, immerse in salt
water for several hours and place in regular trash.
13. Handle all cells or battery packs with care, as
they can deliver high currents if shorted. Shorting by a wedding ring, for
example, will remove a finger.
14. Always store cells or battery packs in a secure
location where they cannot be shorted or handled by children.
15. When constructing a pack, use only cells of the
same capacity (mAh).
I have read the above warnings and agree that
Allerc.com, its successors, heirs and assigns are not responsible in any way
for any and all bodily injury(s) and/or property damage that may occur from the
use of or caused by in any way from a Lithium Polymer, NiMh and NiCd cells or
battery packs and products offered by and/or distributed by Allerc.com.
02-21-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
Stet
Status: Elite Veteran
Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Los Angeles CA I used to work with lithium,
specifically with the SCEPS powerplants (torpedo propulsion, no exhaust pipe).
Lithium burns at 4000 degrees and the worst part is that it gives off lithium
oxide smoke which is deadly. Once reacted with water, the smoke turns to
lithium carbonate which is not hazardous. Stay away from these fires and do not
breathe the smoke whatever you do. If you are there when the fire just starts,
keep in mind that any extinguishing agent other than copper powder will only
accelerate the lithium part of the fire, especially water. I am not sure about
the polymerized version as I only put out fires of pure lithium metal.
** Will Set Up Your Heli for Food **
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
alexander
Status: Elite Veteran
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Canada So the instructions that come with LiP
batteries should be adhered to eh.
1)Don't charge the battery installed in the aircraft.
2)Don't charge batteries on a flamable surface or
around fire hazzards.
3) Don't charge unattended.
4) Charge with an approriate charger/current/voltage.
Seems several people broke most all the safety rules.
The other thing is incidents like this are rare and it could put safety
concious people off using these cells. Some chargers have a voltage sampling
port...might be a good idea to invest in a volt meter and use it.
These battery types are being used in cell phones
inside your breast pocket....anyone blow a nipple off yet! Gun power, glow fuel
and gasoline are flamable but is smoking or using the BBQ OK when handling
these products?
Nice post gents...I'll be a little more cautious
myself, but I'll still use them.
I was charging on a cement floor covered with a ceramic
tile. I might go for a crock pot now.
.
cheers,
stephen
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE GALLERY Attn: RR
Paulsworld
Status: Veteran
Registered: May 2002
Location: Lake Zurich,IL. Thanks for the comments, I
really just wanted to get the word out to the guys just getting into this type
of battery. In the world of fully auto battery chargers to manually change
things to prevent disaster hadn't become automatic to my brain unfortuneately,
and I consider myself fairly cautious about new things.
Anyone with experience cleaning up the powder from the
extinguisher?? Vacuum seems the most logical,but is the powder grain fine
enough to pass through the filters and get tossed back up into the air via the
exhaust?? Thanks for any help....
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE GALLERY Attn: RR
rcnuts
Status: Veteran
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Millersville, Penna YIKES!!!! We are all
glad this didnt turn out to be a much more serious disaster. I have heard this
before, about theese types of batteries. I know the advantages of them, but
will NEVER use them, for this reason. If 1 small mistake can cause this, Ill
stay with ni-cads. Call me old fashened, i dont care!
Really glad you and yours are OK, and hope this doesnt
turn you away from the hobby
Harris,
Hooligan, at large
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
Graeme
Status: Senior Heliman
Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Jeffersonville, IN, USA An odd question, or
two, regarding disposal of LiPOs:
What's the salt water recipe, (for those of us too far
away from an ocean)? Surely that piddly little amount I use on my beans 'n
taters ain't gonna be enough, but do I need something as strong as sea-water?
Is it safe to use iodized salt in the recipe?
I just bought my first LiPO yesterday. After reading
posts like this, it took me every bit of half an hour to get up the guts to
finally attach the pack to my charger. Nothing happened, but I just couldn't
force myself to be more'n a couple seconds away from it for three hours!
I like the ammo box idea. I'll have to take the old
junk out of mine and start using it.
Thanks for the post.
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE Attn: RR
Paulsworld
Status: Veteran
Registered: May 2002
Location: Lake Zurich,IL. Graeme,
Although my post shows the worst, when I set my charger
properly, the packs barely got warm,not to say nothing can happen when properly
set up, but when I was charging a 2 cell pack set up for a 2 cell pack and of
course the proper setup up for a 3 cell pack, I never felt like I was lighting
a stick of dynamite.
My mistake was charging a 2 cell pack with a 3 cell
setup on the charger.
Although monitoring the pack while charging seems like
good common sense, I'm glad myself or my kids weren't around when this thing
blew.
I know nothing about batteries, but from what I read so
far since the incident,the pack will expand while heating up and I could see
myself trying to control the situation to prevent it from exploding and setting
myself up for personal injury.
Rcnuts:
Not gonna leave the hobby...just electrics.
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE GALLERY Attn: RR
Waldo
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Middle of the corn patch (Iowa) Buy a fire
safe at Wal-Mart fairly cheap and about as safe as you can get. I use a big old
cast iron pot set on the concrete basement floor, I also stay in the same room
within eyesight.
LiPo batteries are fairly safe its the way we use them
that makes them dangerous, we discharge them at or above their max limits and
then re-charge them as fast as we can, your bound to have some problems.
Bill
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
w.pasman
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Netherlands Alexander
Quote
--------------------------------------------------
1)Don't charge the battery installed in the
aircraft.
--------------------------------------------------
In quite some cases it's near impossible to get the
pack out...
Quote
--------------------------------------------------
3) Don't charge unattended.
--------------------------------------------------
Well it seems to me you'd better be out of the room if
they explode?
Quote
--------------------------------------------------
4) Charge with an approriate
charger/current/voltage.
--------------------------------------------------
That's not a safety rule, it's essential otherwise you
detonate the pack.
I can think of only one way to be completely safe:
configure packs so that every cellgroup is charged separately, and a charger
that never delivers more than 4.2V.
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE HOMEPAGE Attn: RR
Waldo
Status: Key Veteran
Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Middle of the corn patch (Iowa)
Quote
--------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)Don't charge the battery installed in the
aircraft.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In quite some cases it's near impossible to get
the pack out...
--------------------------------------------------
w.passman,
I think you missed the point on this one, you MUST!
remove the battery pack to charge it safely. LiPo packs need to have a lot of
breathing room at all times (during discharge as well as charging), if you have
it packed into a helicopter or plank so tightly that it can't be removed then
you are asking for problems.
Bill
02-22-2004 - Over year old. PROFILE PM EMAIL
POSTS BUDDY IGNORE ONLINE GALLERY Attn: RR
NEW 4 pages [ << < ( 1 ) 2 3 NEXT >> ]
5897 views POST REPLY
Rick's R/C Helicopters Century Helicopter MTA Hobbies
Get an Email Quote
from the website...
CSM RL10 governors are in stock
GO TO THE STORE WHATS NEW
Main Discussion > Lithium Danger.... Please read
UPDATE SCREEN HOME Advertising
Show a Printable Version Subscribe to This Topic Email This Page
to Someone
Saturday, May 28 - 4:48 am - Copyright © 2000 - 2005
runryder.com | email | link to rr | privacy | START HERE
Other related posts:
- » [laffs] Fw: Lithium Battery Danger
