RE: Update: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
- From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:20:54 -0500
Greg,
Good luck; hope you've found the solution.
You mentioned not being able to see things with the jaws cursor, but
only in I.E. Is that correct? The jaws cursor works in other apps and
is able to see text on the screen? If that's so, it doesn't sound like
a video driver problem.
Chip
Chip Orange
Database Administrator
Florida Public Service Commission
Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(850) 413-6314
=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Epley
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:23 PM
> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Update: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
>=20
> Hi,
> As of today I have done the following, mostly trying to=20
> isolate software differences between my working Dell and the=20
> problem HP:
> -disabled the HP Quick Launch Buttons app to keep it from=20
> running (registry modification).
> -uninstalled iTunes (which was never on the Dell system).
> -uninstalled QuickTime (also never on the Dell system).
> -uninstalled J2RE (also never on the Dell system).
> -uninstalled Zone.com Games (never on the Dell)
>=20
> So far, in several runs, trying to really go at the HP system=20
> and force it to seize up, it has not seized up on me yet,=20
> which is a good sign. I am cautiously optimistic that I have=20
> made some progress, but will believe it when it proves to be=20
> consistent, or at least relatively so.
>=20
> I am noticing now that, when on a web page in IE, and I need=20
> to route the JAWS cursor to a link in order to right click on=20
> it, the screen reads as only seeing the title bar, toolbar=20
> buttons, address bar, and then the status line. There is no=20
> evidence of seeing any of the web page through the JAWS=20
> cursor, and I've tried multiple sites with the same result.
>=20
> I had a similar problem to this on the Dell until I was=20
> finally able to track down and install updated video drivers=20
> for the integrated video in the Dell, so I'm suspecting the=20
> same thing here. What any of the software I uninstalled or=20
> disabled has to do with this current issue is beyond me. I=20
> did do the complete uninstall of Quicktime (which is not=20
> recommended, due to the system extensions), but wanted a=20
> "clean" system. Perhaps that pulled something out.
>=20
> I cannot say for sure and certain that the JAWS cursor did=20
> work correctly before this, as I've gone back and forth=20
> between the HP and Dell for so many days, trying to get=20
> productive work done on my old Dell while trying to diagnose=20
> the HP, that I perhaps am mistaken and was never able to use=20
> the JAWS cursor correctly on web pages on the HP. I will=20
> need to investigate that more and see if I can figure that=20
> out. I am having absolutely no luck finding the NVIDIA=20
> GeForce4 440 Go 64M drivers or software on the HP web site;=20
> all that shows for my model HP is for an ATI card, not an=20
> NVIDIA card.=20
> Tried everything short of contacting HP which is what I'm=20
> likely going to have to do.
>=20
> Once I can get the JAWS cursor problem resolved in IE I plan=20
> to re-enable the Quick Launch Buttons and run awhile to see=20
> if the problem returns. The reason I never used J2RE on the=20
> Dell was because everytime I tried to install that on the=20
> Dell, some weird problem began to occur - a strange crash,=20
> freeze, or malfunction of some sort. I finally gave up on=20
> J2RE; the only reason I had it on the HP was because HP put=20
> it there, most likely because of the Zone.com Games also=20
> preinstalled on the system.
>=20
> I will pass along more info when it becomes available. BTW=20
> thanks to everyone who's responded; I learned a long time ago=20
> that when one is very close to a problem, particularly when=20
> it's as frustrating as this one, it's often hard to see very=20
> obvious solutions or things to try - so again, thanks to all=20
> who've responded, and I'll post more when I have more.
> -Greg
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
>=20
>=20
> > hi, greg,
> > do you have a copy of another screen reader such as window=20
> eyes? if you
> > do then you could try running that instead of jawsand see=20
> whether the
> > problem occurs.
> >
> > Pranav
> > on Tuesday 3/15/2005 08:16 PM, Greg Epley said:
> > Hi Chip,
> > I did consider doing that but unfortunately my routine work=20
> requires=20
> > screen
> >
> > reading more advanced than Narrator can provide. Basically=20
> I wouldn't get
> > much done and the whole effort would just be a waste of=20
> several hours=20
> > time,
> >
> > assuming I could even find enough to do for that long using=20
> Narrator.
> > Unfortunately, due to the numerous problems I've=20
> encountered with FS over
> > the years, and based on over 22 years of computer=20
> experience, JAWS is=20
> > still
> >
> > the culprit here; it may be that something else is upseting=20
> JAWS, but
> > sometimes one software can upset another because one or both aren't=20
> > written
> >
> > properly. It is a known fact that FS still has many bugs=20
> in JAWS that are
> > there mostly because they were left to fester for so long. =20
> As a software
> > developer myself, I fix the problems as soon as I can,=20
> which has always
> > worked best. FS, of course, is bending to marketing and business
> > practices,
> > but in the end they choose to do that. In the end, it may=20
> proove out that
> > JAWS isn't any of the problem here, but for now I must stick with my
> > original gut feelings on this and move on from there.
> > -Greg
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:01 AM
> > Subject: RE: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> >
> >
> > > Could you make do by using the narrator for a few days=20
> instead of jaws
> > > to see if it's really jaws at fault?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Chip Orange
> > > Database Administrator
> > > Florida Public Service Commission
> > >
> > > Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > (850) 413-6314
> > >
> > > =3D20
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20
> > >> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Epley
> > >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 8:52 PM
> > >> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Subject: Re: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> > >>=3D20
> > >> Hi,
> > >> I have looked at the Event logs you mention, and will do so=3D20
> > >> again, and pass along anything to the list that looks=3D20
> > >> suspicious. As I recall, there was nothing shown as Error =
or=3D20
> > >> Warning, but it's always possible I just overlooked it by=3D20
> > >> accident due to the frustration of this problem, so I will=3D20
> > >> try again after a freeze.
> > >>=3D20
> > >> There really isn't anything HP running on this laptop, at=3D20
> > >> least not in the background or at startup, other than an app=3D20
> > >> called QuickLaunch buttons".=3D20
> > >> Otherwise there is nothing - Antivirus or spyware detection=3D20
> > >> or anything else in the background - that isn't also running=3D20
> > >> on the Dell laptop. That is the reason I felt JAWS had to =
be=3D20
> > >> at fault. I will try to disable the Quicklaunch buttons app=3D20
> > >> and see how things go, but if it still freezes then, there =
is=3D20
> > >> little likelyhood that the root of the problem isn't JAWS.
> > >>=3D20
> > >> I talked to my wife about using the machine some without =
JAWS=3D20
> > >> on it, but it will be at least a few days before we can run=3D20
> > >> that trial, and then about all she will be able to do is=3D20
> > >> browse the internet and run whatever she can find to kill=3D20
> > >> time on it, as it's not her regular machine and so doesn't=3D20
> > >> have all her software on it, but we'll give this a try just=3D20
> > >> the same and pass the results on to the list.
> > >> -Greg
> > >>=3D20
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Chip Orange" <Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 4:28 PM
> > >> Subject: RE: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> > >>=3D20
> > >>=3D20
> > >> > Ok, your first and best resource is the system error log. =3D20
> > >> Have a look
> > >> > at it by going into control panel and choosing=3D20
> > >> administrative tools. In
> > >> > there, choose the event viewer (do this immediately=20
> after recovering
> > >> > from one of your freezes). The event viewer gives you=20
> access to 3
> > >> > different system logs, but the security one is never of =
any=3D20
> > >> help. Check
> > >> > the application and system logs for any entries (from the=3D20
> > >> top downwards)
> > >> > that say warning or error beside them. Go into that=20
> entry, find the
> > >> > details edit box, and copy the info into an email to the=3D20
> > >> list and/or FS.
> > >> >
> > >> > Hopefully there will be something in there to look at=20
> other than
> > >> > ordinary information entries.
> > >> >
> > >> > Btw, why do you think the cause is jaws? There's=20
> probably a lot of
> > >> > other software running on that pc, including some=20
> added by HP, and
> > >> > perhaps anti-virus etc. added by you. Have you had a=20
> sighted person
> > >> > work with it as much as you have, and had no errors when=3D20
> > >> they weren't
> > >> > using jaws? That would be about the only reason to really=3D20
> > >> suspect jaws
> > >> > as the cause.
> > >> >
> > >> > Hth,
> > >> >
> > >> > Chip
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Chip Orange
> > >> > Database Administrator
> > >> > Florida Public Service Commission
> > >> >
> > >> > Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > (850) 413-6314
> > >> >
> > >> > =3D3D20
> > >> >
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
> > >> >> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg Epley
> > >> >> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:42 PM
> > >> >> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> >> Subject: JAWS problem on new HP laptop
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Hello,
> > >> >> Before I describe the problem I'm having with a new=20
> laptop=3D3D20
> > >> >> system and JAWS, here is the currently working laptop=20
> system=3D3D20
> > >> >> for your reference:
> > >> >> JAWS 5.10.383
> > >> >> Windows XP Home Edition, SP2
> > >> >> Dell Inspiron 4000
> > >> >> Intel Pentium III 900MHz
> > >> >> 512Mb RAM
> > >> >> ATI Rage Mobility M3
> > >> >> ESS Maestro PCI Audio
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> And here is the new laptop system that the problem is=20
> occuring on:
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> JAWS 5.10.383
> > >> >> Windows XP Home Edition, SP2
> > >> >> HP Pavilion ZV5210US
> > >> >> AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3000+
> > >> >> 512Mb RAM
> > >> >> NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M
> > >> >> SoundMAX Digital Audio
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Again, the software above has all been running fine=20
> on the=3D3D20
> > >> >> Dell mentioned above; I am also using the same speech=20
> synth=3D3D20
> > >> >> on the HP as the Dell, but have tried using=20
> Elloquence and=3D3D20
> > >> >> had the same problem.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I thought perhaps someone here on the list might know=20
> of what=3D3D20
> > >> >> is causing the conflict as the FS support database=20
> mentions=3D3D20
> > >> >> no conflicts with the exact hardware components on the =
HP=3D3D20
> > >> >> system, or that perhaps someone had this same system =
and=3D3D20
> > >> >> could help me troubleshoot the issue.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I haven't contacted FS yet about this problem because=20
> I have=3D3D20
> > >> >> no control over who responds to the support request,=20
> and I=3D3D20
> > >> >> need someone I can count on who can get to the crux=20
> of the=3D3D20
> > >> >> problem and get it fixed rather than blindly grasping =
at=3D3D20
> > >> >> straws, having no more idea than I do how to fix it. =20
> I don't=3D3D20
> > >> >> need that; I can do plenty of that without anyone's=20
> help if I=3D3D20
> > >> >> want. I want to see what sort of response I get from=20
> list=3D3D20
> > >> >> members first and then proceed from there.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The problem:
> > >> >> I can be working along on the HP, when suddenly the =
whole=3D3D20
> > >> >> system just seems to seize up. JAWS stops talking;=20
> my wife=3D3D20
> > >> >> reports the mouse pointer still moves using a regular=20
> mouse=3D3D20
> > >> >> or the touchpad, however, the mouse cannot be used to=20
> open=3D3D20
> > >> >> the start menu or anything, and neither an external=20
> full size=3D3D20
> > >> >> keyboard or the laptop keyboard will function. I=20
> therefore=3D3D20
> > >> >> can't try to launch Microsoft Narrator to see if it will talk.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The above "seize up" occurs at random times. I have =
kept=3D3D20
> > >> >> records showing I ran these sessions:
> > >> >> 1 hour 52 min.
> > >> >> 49 min.
> > >> >> 6 min.
> > >> >> 10 min.
> > >> >> 52 min.
> > >> >> 25 min.=3D3D20
> > >> >> 58 min.
> > >> >> 1 hour 6 min.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The last four usage sessions were run with the system=20
> being=3D3D20
> > >> >> powered up from cold early in the morning and shut=20
> off around=3D3D20
> > >> >> 6:30-7pm; so for the last two usage sessions for=20
> example, I=3D3D20
> > >> >> ran 58 min. with no seize up, then the system just=20
> sat there=3D3D20
> > >> >> until late afternoon/early evening, then I had a seize =
up=3D3D20
> > >> >> after 1 hour 6 min.; all the other times listed, I=20
> turned the=3D3D20
> > >> >> system on from cold and used it for the time listed=20
> before it=3D3D20
> > >> >> seized up. =3D3D20
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I have checked the system several times and compared=20
> how hot=3D3D20
> > >> >> it got compared to the Dell, and the HP system is=20
> running far=3D3D20
> > >> >> cooler, even when comparing both laptops just sitting=20
> there=3D3D20
> > >> >> doing nothing. So that and the random times listed =
would=3D3D20
> > >> >> seem to indicate the problem isn't heat related.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> There is nothing in any kind of diagnostic I have run=20
> on the=3D3D20
> > >> >> HP to indicate any kind of hardware failure or=20
> conflict of a=3D3D20
> > >> >> hardware nature or a software driver.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Personally I feel the problem is JAWS and not some=20
> flaw in=3D3D20
> > >> >> the computer components. Perhaps it is the=20
> processor, but as=3D3D20
> > >> >> Windows XP SP2 seems to have no issues otherwise, and =
the=3D3D20
> > >> >> problem only occurs with JAWS usage, that would seem to=3D3D20
> > >> >> indicate the issue is JAWS related. If it is the=20
> processor,=3D3D20
> > >> >> FS had better get their act together and get this=20
> figured out=3D3D20
> > >> >> and working, because anyone shopping for a system is=20
> going to=3D3D20
> > >> >> start ending up with processors like this.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Perhaps it is the SoundMax audio or the specific=20
> model NVIDIA=3D3D20
> > >> >> video card. The video intercept installed fine and =
has=3D3D20
> > >> >> reported no problems under any resolution or quality =
I've=3D3D20
> > >> >> tried. The sound has performed fine running various=3D3D20
> > >> >> applications other than the fact that I can't hear=20
> JAWS any=3D3D20
> > >> >> longer once the system seizes up. Again, if the=20
> problem is=3D3D20
> > >> >> due to one of these devices, FS had better get to=20
> fixing it=3D3D20
> > >> >> as best they can; laptops aren't like desktops; you=20
> pretty=3D3D20
> > >> >> much end up with integrated sound and video you have no=3D20
> > >> choice over.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I have an investment in the JAWS software of well=20
> over $1,000=3D3D20
> > >> >> at this point, and while I understand FS can't test=20
> or force=3D3D20
> > >> >> their software to work with everything, I likewise=20
> shouldn't=3D3D20
> > >> >> be pinned down to only buying machines with certain=3D3D20
> > >> >> processors or sound or video cards.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The system is going nowhere. I am keeping the=20
> system, even=3D3D20
> > >> >> if it takes FS several years to come up to the state=20
> of the=3D3D20
> > >> >> art processor and other components in this HP laptop. =3D3D20
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I want to be very careful what I enable, disable,=20
> install or=3D3D20
> > >> >> uninstall, lest I end up having to clean install a=20
> brand new=3D3D20
> > >> >> laptop all because no one here on the list or at FS=20
> has any=3D3D20
> > >> >> more idea than I do what is causing the problem and=20
> are just=3D3D20
> > >> >> blindly grasping at straws to fix the problem. I=20
> don't need=3D3D20
> > >> >> the latter; something is causing this problem and=20
> there is=3D3D20
> > >> >> some way to fix it that doesn't require grasping at=20
> straws to fix.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> At this point I'd appreciate any constructive, positive=3D3D20
> > >> >> feedback I can get on this seizing problem, as I'd=20
> like to=3D3D20
> > >> >> begin getting full use out of my brand new laptop. =20
> No one is=3D3D20
> > >> >> going to change my opinion of FS products so let's=20
> just stick=3D3D20
> > >> >> to the problem at hand and leave it at that.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Oh BTW I should add that I checked the BIOS settings =
and=3D3D20
> > >> >> there does not appear to be anything in there that=20
> would seem=3D3D20
> > >> >> to be something I could disable or change that could=20
> solve=3D3D20
> > >> >> the problem. =3D3D20
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The problem also does not appear to occur while using =
any=3D3D20
> > >> >> particular application (such as IE, Outlook Express,=20
> etc.). =3D3D20
> > >> >> I do not own any competing screedn reading product,=20
> and as=3D3D20
> > >> >> the trial times for Dolphin's HAL and G.W. Micro's=20
> WindowEyes=3D3D20
> > >> >> are only 30 minutes long, it would take me quite a=20
> long time=3D3D20
> > >> >> running 30 min. sessions to try to stumble across one=20
> of the=3D3D20
> > >> >> seizes that might occur within that short time frame. =3D3D20
> > >> >> Besides which, one of the things FS did a really good=20
> job on=3D3D20
> > >> >> was the keyboard layout for JAWS vs. the competitors=3D3D20
> > >> >> products. I think this is just a matter of isolating=20
> what is=3D3D20
> > >> >> causing the problem, and perhaps FS fixing some flaw=20
> in their=3D3D20
> > >> >> product that doesn't like the processor, sound card=20
> or video=3D3D20
> > >> >> card on this HP laptop. =3D3D20
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> The problem also doesn't appear to occur in a=20
> reproducable=3D3D20
> > >> >> manner; i.e., I've had it seize up when I was really=20
> typing=3D3D20
> > >> >> fast, but also when I wasn't - perhaps when I was just=3D3D20
> > >> >> hitting one key after several seconds. There is just =
no=3D3D20
> > >> >> pattern to it; it is like playing Russian roulette=20
> with my=3D3D20
> > >> >> work - do something and save, do something and save, do=3D3D20
> > >> >> something and BOOM - seize up without any warning.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> I haven't received my JAWS 6 shipment yet, so have no=20
> idea if=3D3D20
> > >> >> JAWS 6 would resolve the problem.
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> Again, please offer any constructive, positive=20
> feedback if=3D3D20
> > >> >> you think you have any ideas as to what might be=20
> causing the=3D3D20
> > >> >> problem. I have client work I am trying to complete so=3D3D20
> > >> >> please bear with me if I don't respond back quickly;=20
> I will=3D3D20
> > >> >> try suggestions as soon as I can and get back to any=20
> of you=3D3D20
> > >> >> as soon as possible.
> > >> >> -Greg
> > >> >>=3D3D20
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> To post a message to the list, send it to=20
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20
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to=3D3D20
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> in the=3D3D20
> > >> >> subject line.
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> > >> >>=3D3D20
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> > >> >>=3D3D20
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> > >> >=3D20
> > >>=3D20
> > >>=3D20
> > >>=3D20
> > >> --
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> > >>=3D20
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> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in=20
> the subject line.
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
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> >=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> > Pranav
> >
> > --
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> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
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> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> the list, or=20
> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather=20
> > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>=20
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them=20
> to the list. Rather contact the list owner at=20
> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=20
>=20
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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