[huskerlug] Re: Review of Linux's New Ubuntu and Moblin for Netbooks - WSJ.com
- From: GreyGeek <GreyGeek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: huskerlug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 18:29:50 -0500
adunlop wrote:
>> My laptop's Intel Mobil 4 series chipset (GM45) works great.
>>
>
> The state of Intel graphic driver support is horrid.
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzAyOQ
>
I know Adam very well and have worked with him on resolving a minor
problems when I was running Mandriva. Picking a niche market video
chip is not proof that Intel video drivers in Linux is a mess... the
GMA 500 is not really a follow up to all the previous Intel chips. It’s
a bit of Intel’s platform with a PowerVR (those of you who’ve been
breaking crap as long as I have may remember PowerVR as an early
contender to 3DFX and NVIDIA; **they’ve since scurried off into niche
markets...**
And, he adds in the comments: **I should note that it really isn’t
unusable or anything with the vesa driver.** It runs in a native aspect
ratio resolution - 1024×600 - so nothing’s squished up or weird-looking.
It’s obviously not as sharp as the native resolution would be, and it
makes stuff like rendering web pages slower and video playback unusable,
but it’s livable-with for now. ** I dunno if I’d flat-out recommend
anyone get a P until it’s fixed, but you wouldn’t kick yourself if you
did, I don’t think.**
What do you about that... That's probably why the title to the article
is a question.
He goes on to explain, also in the comments:
"... there seems to be **no problem** keeping xf86-video-intel up to
date with the latest developments in X.org and the kernel. Why? Because
it’s properly documented hardware with no stupid proprietary bits, in
the proper public repositories, maintained by Intel folks who know what
they’re doing in concert with the X.org developers. That’s how a proper
open source graphics driver project works."
So, the "state of Intel graphic support" ISN'T "horrible". In fact, the
Xorg xf86-video-intel project is "proper".
>
>> So does my pulseaudio
>>
>
> My latest pulseaudio fight was that it doesn't supply a video/audio
> timing sync causing video sources to run all kinds of fast/slow. PA
> is getting better, but it's still all kinds of buggy. I'd say we're
> at least 12 months out from it being stable or ready to even leave
> beta status.
>
We? My pulseaudio seems to be 0 months out from being stable. It's
never crashed on me and, as I said, my sound works perfectly. Even
SecondLife's Linux client gives me excellent sound and voice chat even.
>
>> Intel 5100 wireless
>>
>
> Yeah, Intel wireless has fairly good native support. Broadcom
> chipsets remain the biggest source in cheaper laptops (the kind that
> most people buy) and getting those working requires ndiswrapper or
> spotty native support. Even Atheros chipsets have issues.
>
The Gateway m675prr which I gave to my son is running Kubuntu 9.094 and
it has a Broadcom 4306 chipset. It was recognizes and configured
automatically.
>
>> two printers I mentioned
>>
>
> We have probably 20 printers at our company that I've dealt with.
> There's about a 75% rate of support for Leopard/*nix distros with
> them. The ones that work work great, the ones that don't require a
> fair level of knowledge to work.
>
>
>> Who has to compile drivers against a kernel source? I haven't used
>> any
>> distro in the last 5 years where that was a requirement to get some
>> common device (printer, cdrom, wifi, usb device, etc...)
>>
>
> I've had to do that on any current RTL8111/8168B NIC chipsets on
> multiple distros. That's the default chipset for current AMD
> Southbridge along with most cheap NIC expansion cards that I've used.
> As of 2.6.27.21-170.2.56 the native kernel driver has bugs that cause
> the link to go up and down randomly every few seconds along with
> packet loss, high CPU usage, and other random errors. I personally
> can verify at least 4 major vendors and multiple versions of use those
> and have that bug. I think it spans the entire AMD SB700 chipset. Do
> you use AMD chipsets on current motherboards?
>
No. I've built a whitebox or two using cheap components. I've found
that you get what you pay for when you buy cheap equipment. However,
regarding AMD's SB700 chipset... WHEN is it JUST a Linux problem?
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Vista-SP1-Does-Not-Hibernate-on-AMD-SB700-Southbridge-Chipsets-92772.shtml
"Vista SP1 Does Not "Hibernate" on AMD SB700 Southbridge Chipsets. The
issue impacts Windows Server 2008 as well"
So, when are you going to proclaim that VISTA is NOT READY for the desktop?
>
>> The fact is that you aren't as "OS agnostic" as you claim
>>
>
> My views are fairly normal, they're of anyone that experiments with
> current hardware and software with an open mind.
>
They are normal, for a Windows fanboi. Your open mind claim is
doubtful, since you never proclaim that Windows is not ready for the
desktop when, it fact, it has similar problems you claim Linux has.
GG
> Aaron
>
> On May 30, 2009, at 2:12 PM, GreyGeek wrote:
>
>
>> Nonsense.
>>
>> My laptop's Intel Mobil 4 series chipset (GM45) works great.
>> So does my pulseaudio and my Intel 5100 wireless, and the two
>> printers I
>> mentioned. In the last year I have not had a single printer fail to
>> install on any of the machines I've installed Linux on for folks who
>> asked me to replace their corrupted Windows installation.
>>
>> In fact, Kubuntu 9.04 with KDE4.2.3 works better on this laptop than
>> VISTA Home Premium.
>>
>> The "lots of cases" isn't as many as you imply, nor is it as common as
>> you claim. As long as new hardware continues to be produced there
>> will
>> always be "lots of work" to do on Linux, but that is true of Windows
>> as
>> well, if my VISTA video driver demonstrated.
>>
>> Who has to compile drivers against a kernel source? I haven't used
>> any
>> distro in the last 5 years where that was a requirement to get some
>> common device (printer, cdrom, wifi, usb device, etc...), and that
>> includes most in the top 10 on Distrowatch, and that is a FACT, not a
>> "sugar coating". If there is any sugar coating going on it is the PR
>> lies about Windows security and stability, as the Ukranian 1.9 million
>> windows zombie bot farm demonstrates, and if that IS putting people
>> off
>> to Windows, perhaps forever.
>>
>> You can drop the pretense. The fact is that you aren't as "OS
>> agnostic"
>> as you claim, and your constant "advice" against Linux's readiness for
>> the desktop flies in the fact of that MUTIPLE MILLIONS are having a
>> successful experience with Linux on their desktop after moving from
>> Windows, where their desktop experience was considerably less so. In
>> fact, MOST of the newbies to Linux are refugees from Windows.
>>
>> Ballmer gave a talk a couple months ago and put up a graphic which
>> showed what he believed to be the percentage of desktop market share
>> for
>> Windows, piracy, Linux and Apple. His pie slice for Linux was larger
>> than that of Apple's and Apple is universally quoted at being around
>> 10%
>> because it is easy to track their retail channel numbers.
>> http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_Apple
>> What does Ballmer know that you don't? Quite a lot.
>> GG
>>
>> adunlop wrote:
>>
>>> Meh, Intel graphics chipsets? Pulseaudio? Wifi/LAN chipsets?
>>> Motherboard chipsets? Printer support? There's lots of cases where
>>> you have to deal with buggy, broken, or missing drivers and it's
>>> still
>>> pretty common. Compiling drivers against a kernel source isn't even
>>> close to the same as a CD with autoplay in terms of usability. :p
>>>
>>> There's still just a ton of work left to be done if Linux is to be a
>>> viable desktop for the average joe. Sugar-coating that will just
>>> turn
>>> people off to Linux for years if not forever.
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2009, at 11:47 AM, GreyGeek wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I don't believe it is "true", i.e. a characteristic of all
>>>> installations
>>>> of Linux, regardless of the distro or the hardware on which it is
>>>> installed. And for recently released hardware it is equally
>>>> likely
>>>> that Windows doesn't have a driver, or that it is of poor quality,
>>>> and
>>>> that situation isn't often overcome by compiling a Windows source
>>>> code
>>>> or by something which can't be done: recompiling the Windows
>>>> kernel.
>>>> That was the situation when I purchased this laptop last August.
>>>>
>>>> I recently installed Kubuntu 9.04 with KDE4.2.2, which I later
>>>> upgraded
>>>> to KDE4.2.3, on this Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E/H laptop. I connected it
>>>> to a
>>>> Samsung ML-1210 laser over my home network, and to an HP5100 All-in-
>>>> One
>>>> printer/scannner/copier via a USB port.
>>>>
>>>> Everything worked on this laptop "out of the box". The webcam,
>>>> sound,
>>>> hotkeys, accelerated video+3D, storage devices, USB ports, ...
>>>> everything. I have never had a video problem, much less one like
>>>> that
>>>> which plagued VISTA on this laptop. Even voice chat on SecondLife
>>>> using
>>>> the SL-1.22.11 Linux client works great. I didn't have to putz
>>>> with
>>>> a single device. Had I connected the ML-1210 directly to the USB
>>>> port I
>>>> suspect that it would have been automatically detected by HAL,
>>>> configured and installed, because both Mandriva and PCLinuxOS saw
>>>> and
>>>> configured it when it was connected directly to my old laptop.
>>>> Network
>>>> printer installations are a different matter. Oh, BTW, Kubuntu
>>>> 4.2.3
>>>> is fantastic!
>>>>
>>>> Not only that, my Kubuntu installation took less than 30 minutes.
>>>> This
>>>> laptop used to have VISTA Home Premium on it. The few times I
>>>> ran it
>>>> my LCD monitor would occasionally "disconnect" and I'd get a text
>>>> message (on what looked like a DOS box) saying something to the
>>>> effect
>>>> that VISTA was searching for it. I replaced VISTA with Kubuntu, and
>>>> took my licensed copy of XP Pro and installed it in a VirtualBox
>>>> as a
>>>> guest of Kubuntu. It took 90 minutes to install XP and another
>>>> couple
>>>> hours to get devices recognized and configured, which is partly a
>>>> "virtual" problem, and to install automatic updates from
>>>> Microsoft. I
>>>> turn on my virtual XP every other week or so just to update it and
>>>> that
>>>> can take anywhere from a few minutes to half an hour, even though XP
>>>> is
>>>> doing nothing else. I have a 10Mb/s uncapped Earthlink connection
>>>> with a download bandwidth that has, on occasions, reached 2Mb/s,
>>>> when
>>>> using prozilla.
>>>>
>>>> The CD which I used to install Kubuntu I also used on 4 other
>>>> laptops,
>>>> ALL of which installed with the same success as my personal laptop.
>>>> They include an 7 or 8 year old Compaq Presario 1500, a 5 year old
>>>> Gateway m675prr, a 3 year old Acer Aspire 4310L, a really old
>>>> EMachine,
>>>> and last night I gave the distro to a friend who is going to replace
>>>> his
>>>> infected (even with a fully updated av subscription) XP
>>>> installation,
>>>> which had become unusable, but which he could not afford to
>>>> replace or
>>>> repair.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Besides, most printers are installed using CUPS. Being "forced"
>>>> to
>>>> pull down a printer driver from a Linux repository (which implies it
>>>> is
>>>> a hassle and something to be avoided at all cost, or that there are
>>>> better ways to obtain Linux software, which is patently false),
>>>> where
>>>> all one has to do is enter the printer name in the search box and
>>>> click
>>>> the "search" button, click on the offering and click the apply
>>>> button,
>>>> after which it is promptly downloaded, installed, and a menu item is
>>>> added, is not the same as having to do a Google search on the
>>>> Internet
>>>> for a Windows device driver and then hope and pray that the driver
>>>> you
>>>> found on some website isn't a Trojan whose signature isn't
>>>> recognized by
>>>> the AV you have installed. Even vendors websites have dispensed
>>>> infected drivers, and some vendors have deliberately vend Trojan
>>>> root
>>>> kits. The number of Linux device drivers that can only be obtained
>>>> by
>>>> downloading the source and compiling it, and/or reconfiguring and
>>>> recompiling a kernel has been so insignificant in the last two or
>>>> three
>>>> years as to be a ludicrous reason for not being able to use Linux on
>>>> the
>>>> vast majority of PCs. It is a Myth born of a Linux experience which
>>>> is
>>>> more than 5 years old and fanned by Windows fanbois doing drive-by
>>>> postings on Linux and Windows forums.
>>>>
>>>> When I first started using Linux, in May of 1998, compiling drivers
>>>> and
>>>> kernels was a common experience. But, by January of 2000, when I
>>>> scrubbed Win95 off my Sony VAIO desktop and gave the entire HD to
>>>> SuSE
>>>> 6.3 (IIRC), users compiling kernels was no longer necessary, and
>>>> compiling drivers was getting to be uncommon. (Not withstanding
>>>> problems caused by DIY whiteboxes, of which I made two, created
>>>> with
>>>> cheap components, usually because they had manufacturing defects,
>>>> and
>>>> which rarely saw Windows because Windows was always preinstalled on
>>>> new
>>>> PCs, but despite that Linux ran on them just fine.)
>>>>
>>>> Also, the Windows forums are filled, in proportion, with just as
>>>> many "I
>>>> can't get X to work", or, "I can't find a driver for Y" stories as
>>>> there
>>>> are similar msgs in Linux forums, if not more, but seldom does one
>>>> hear
>>>> that charge that those problems are universal with Windows
>>>> installations. Not only that, **it cannot be denied that computer
>>>> repair shops do a booming business disinfecting Windows boxes,
>>>> cleaning
>>>> them up, or anything else to get them back to the performance they
>>>> had
>>>> when new, or they do a complete HD scrub with a re-installation of
>>>> Windows -- the old Windows tech mantra -- reboot, reinstall or
>>>> rebuild**. This is Windows "dirty little secret" and which puts
>>>> short
>>>> shrift to the theory that Windows is stable and AV protects them.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of months ago I took my Licensed copy of XP to a computer
>>>> shop
>>>> who said, over the phone, that they "might" be able to repair it
>>>> (after
>>>> my first attempt to install it as a guest under Kubuntu failed
>>>> because
>>>> of cd read errors). Out of curiosity I asked them if they sell or
>>>> install Linux. The conversation, as I can best recall it, went like
>>>> this:
>>>>
>>>> Them: "No."
>>>>
>>>> "Why not?"
>>>>
>>>> Them: "Linux doesn't get infected, it doesn't bog down, and the
>>>> software
>>>> is free. No money in that."
>>>>
>>>> "Are you familiar with Linux?"
>>>>
>>>> Them: "Yes. We all use it personally. (There were three in the
>>>> store) Sometimes we use it to fix or recover Windows
>>>> installations, or
>>>> remove infections."
>>>>
>>>> "But there is no money to be made selling it or applications which
>>>> run
>>>> under it, and it doesn't break down often enough to require your
>>>> services?"
>>>>
>>>> Them: "That's about it."
>>>>
>>>> They couldn't get the scratches polished enough so the CD would boot
>>>> on
>>>> one of their PCs, so they sold me a OEM copy of XP Pro with a
>>>> license
>>>> key "that should work, but no guarantees" for $10. (Still don't
>>>> know if
>>>> they were being legal about that offer.)
>>>> The key wasn't honored when I attempted to certify it with
>>>> Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> But, their polishing worked better than mine so that when I squeezed
>>>> up
>>>> on the CD tray while XP was loading it was able to read through the
>>>> section of the CD that had previously failed, and I was able to
>>>> get my
>>>> licensed copy of XP Pro installed as a guest under VBox.
>>>>
>>>> So you see, I am not an XP phobe. It is the best OS Microsoft has
>>>> yet
>>>> to release. It's just that Microsoft's corporate ethics are
>>>> indefensible, and my experience with VISTA pre-installed on this
>>>> laptop
>>>> proved to me that it stunk, a view held by most corporations and a
>>>> majority of XP users.
>>>>
>>>> GG
>>>>
>>>> Jim Worrest wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's true. I was rather surprised that Debian "etch" didn't
>>>>> handle my hp computer and especially the all-in-one printer as well
>>>>> as
>>>>> it should. The quirks in the computer I can overlook, but the
>>>>> printer
>>>>> with "etch" doesn't work. However, it appears that Ubuntu, and
>>>>> Easy
>>>>> Peasy really got their act together, and the printer should work
>>>>> very
>>>>> well on my netbook, with at least a quick test showed that it did.
>>>>>
>>>>> adunlop wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The issue that Linux has is that it's easier to install device
>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>> on Windows than it is on Linux. Most current distros come with a
>>>>>> wide
>>>>>> base of supported hardware. For hardware that isn't supported or
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> closed-source drivers you're forced to use your package management
>>>>>> system if you're lucky, or compile drivers or in the very worst
>>>>>> case,
>>>>>> compile a kernel using new drivers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With Windows it's typically as easy as throwing a disc in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> Husker Linux Users Group mailing list
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>>>> with a subject of UNSUBSCRIBE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ----
>>> Husker Linux Users Group mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> ----
>> GreyGeek
>>
>> “They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how
>> to collect sometime in the next decade.”
>>
>> –Bill Gates
>>
>>
>> “Bill Gates looks at everything as something that should be his. He
>> acts in any way he can to make it his. It can be an idea, market
>> share, or a contract. There is not an ounce of conscientiousness or
>> compassion in him. The notion of fairness means nothing to him. The
>> only thing he understands is leverage.”
>>
>> –Philippe Kahn
>>
>> I don't think it's any coincidence that Microsoft achieved dominance
>> in the American market during the same period that bottled water
>> became omnipresent. In both instances, clever marketing convinced
>> the general public that something that was clean, safe and free was
>> inferior to a product encased in plastic.
>>
>>
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>> with a subject of UNSUBSCRIBE
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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> Husker Linux Users Group mailing list
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> with a subject of UNSUBSCRIBE
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>
>
>
--
----
GreyGeek
“They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect
sometime in the next decade.”
–Bill Gates
“Bill Gates looks at everything as something that should be his. He acts in any
way he can to make it his. It can be an idea, market share, or a contract.
There is not an ounce of conscientiousness or compassion in him. The notion of
fairness means nothing to him. The only thing he understands is leverage.”
–Philippe Kahn
I don't think it's any coincidence that Microsoft achieved dominance in the
American market during the same period that bottled water became omnipresent.
In both instances, clever marketing convinced the general public that something
that was clean, safe and free was inferior to a product encased in plastic.
----
Husker Linux Users Group mailing list
To unsubscribe, send a message to huskerlug-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
with a subject of UNSUBSCRIBE
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