[geocentrism] Re: Revised article
- From: Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:18:01 -0700 (PDT)
I tend to agree with Philip and Robert in this area and, I would further argue
that Christans are the real and only jews and that Jesus came and fullfilled
all the old law under which we are no longer debters to however, I don't have
time to persue these arguments any further right now.
Allen
Carl Felland <cfelland@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Philip,
I'm saying that Moses was not confused because he had firsthand instruction
from YHWH.
Messiah criticized the Pharisees for making the law a burden for the people
by ADDING rules supposed preventing the people from even having a chance to
break the law in the hand washing example. They were also criticized for
teaching doctrines of MEN that nullified the commandments of God.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother,
[It is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus
have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me
with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the
commandments of men.
I understand that your choice of calendar tells who you honor. It is well
known that Constantine chose dates for church holidays that the people were
already used to worshiping on before they converted to Christianity. The
danger is that the former religion is still being promoted by these dates.
One does not have to look far to see elements of sun worship in Christmas,
Easter and Sunday.
As far as the birth of Messiah, my understanding is that the Feast of
Tabernacles is a much more likely time. He may have been conceived during
the period of Hanukkah.
It is the Jews through whom came the Scriptures, the Messiah, and a record
of YHWH's calendar. I want to carefully search out that heritage. I
rejoice in the prophetic relationship of the Passover/Unleavened Bread
festival concerning the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. This is
just the first feast. We also have Pentecost and Tabernacles. I do not see
that Tabernacles has yet been fulfilled.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
Carl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:39 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Revised article
>I am sure that Moses was not confused about which days were
> which. ......
> How can you be sure of that.?
>
> Some how I get the distinct impression from the Gospels that Jesus
> condemned the pharisees for strict adherence to the law without due
> consideration of the spirit ofthe law. Dirty hands for example.
>
> I find it hard to believe that God gives twohoots about whether we get the
> days mixed up a bit so long as we do try. His calandar isnot our calandar.
>
> Do you really believe that He cares that December 25 is not the actual
> historical date of His birth? It is that whole world is reminded to
> worship Him on this day that really counts.
>
> Philip.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl Felland
> To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 2:26 PM
> Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Revised article
>
>
> Allen,
>
> I am reading how the different factions of the Jews were debating when
> Passover should have been celebrated even 100 years before Messiah. If
> they
> were already confused then, what about us who are that much further from
> that time. I am sure that Moses was not confused about which days were
> which. I think a calendar change between the time of Moses and Messiah
> contributed to the confusion. My faith, however, is that Messiah
> perfectly
> fulfilled the feasts.
>
> We have the Messiah sharing a passover with his disciples on what I am
> labeling the night of the thirteenth. Was this when the original
> passover
> meal was eaten, or was it the only time he could eat it, because he would
> be
> the passover the next day. The account in John seems to clearly state
> the
> latter. In the evening it was before the passover (Joh 13:1). It was
> still
> before passover at the end of that night (Joh 18:28).
>
> Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his
> hour
> was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having
> loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
>
> Joh 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart
> of
> Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;
>
> Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment:
> and
> it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest
> they
> should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
>
> However, the other Gospels, especially Mark and Luke, appear to say
> something entirely different. I understant that these texts record what
> happened on the thirteenth during the daylight hours. No Old Testament
> reference associates either passover or unleavened bread with the
> thirteenth
> day of the month. I think we must attempt to understand this from the
> Old Testament where Moses clearly stated the first day of Unleavened
> Bread is the fifteenth, but that unleavened bread is to be eaten from the
> evening of the fourteenth to the evening of the twenty first.
>
> Good news! These can be reconciled by correcting bias of the
> King James translators. Note in Matthew 26:17 'day' is in brackets. It
> is
> not in
> the Greek. The Greek reads 'DE PROTOS' or 'before the first.' It is the
> same in the Mark account. In Luke 22:7 the 'then came' is actually
> 'then to come.' Now all four Gospels agree.
>
> Mat 26:17 Now the first [day] of the [feast of] unleavened bread the
> disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare
> for thee to eat the passover? Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to
> such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I
> will
> keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. Mat 26:19 And the
> disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the
> passover.
> Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
>
> Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the
> passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and
> prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
>
> Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be
> killed.
> Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the
> passover,
> that we may eat.
>
> Allen, I believe you still have a bias in thinking that MIA SABBATON is
> Sunday.
>
> Carl
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allen Daves"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:12 PM
> Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Revised article
>
>
> >I definitely think we are making progress even if we don't agree on the
> use
> >of the term sunrise vs dusk or evening. The net effect is relatively
> >identical.( 3 days with 3 nights no specific number of hours) however,
> your
> >Mark 16:1 ref for night two takes place on the first day of the week (
> >Christ resurrection) you have it on day two with Christ Rising after or
> at
> >night on day 3. I think we may need to look at the noon to noon
> possibility
> >as well because the terminology seems to be very mixed in the narratives
> >with Common and Jewish legal terms for what day is what.
> >
> > Mathew 26:2. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover,
> and
> > the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified. Mark 14: 1. After two days
> was
> > the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief
> priests
> > and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to
> > death. 2. But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar
> of
> > the people.
> >
> > Matthew 26: 1; Mark 14:12-18; Luke 22:7. And the day of unleavened
> bread
> > came on which the passover must be sacrificed. 8. And he sent Peter and
> > John, saying, Go and make ready for us the passover, that we may eat.
> 9.
> > And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we make ready? 10. And he
> > said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall
> > meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house
> where
> > into he goeth. 11. And ye shall say unto the master of the house, The
> > Teacher saith unto thee, Where is the guest chamber, where I shall eat
> the
> > passover with my disciples? 12. And he will show you a large upper room
> > furnished: there make ready. 13. And they went, and found as he had
> said
> > unto them: and they made ready the Passover. 14. And when the hour was
> > come, he sat down, and the apostles with him. 15. And he said unto
> them,
> > With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I
> > suffer:..............................John 13: 1. Now be
> > fore the
> > feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he
> > should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own
> > which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2. And SUPPER
> BEING
> > ENDED, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot,
> Simon's
> > son, to betray him;..... this is in the even or night before the
> Passover
> > is eaten by every body................................... John 18:28.
> Then
> > led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was
> early;
> > and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should
> be
> > defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
> > ..........................Matthew 27: 1. When the morning was come, all
> > the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus
> to
> > put him to death: ...........................John 18: 39. But ye have a
> > custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye
> > therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 40. Then cried
> the
> > y all
> > again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.
> 14.
> > And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:
> and
> > he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! ........................John
> 19:
> > 15. But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.
> Pilate
> > saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered,
> We
> > have no king but Caesar.16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to
> be
> > crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
> > ......................Mark 15:42. And when even was now come, because
> it
> > was the Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43. there
> came
> > Joseph of Arimathaea, Mark 16: 1. And when the sabbath was past, Mary
> > Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet
> > spices, that they might come and anoint him.2.And very early in the
> > morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the
> > rising of the sun.3. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll
> > us away
> > the stone from the door of the sepulchre?4. And when they looked, they
> saw
> > that the stone was rolled away: for it was very
> > great.......................Seems like the narratives are using a
> > combination of Jewish legal terms for days as well as generic or Roman
> > days to outline the events here which make it not as easy of a read as
> > perhaps we might like. As a consequence I thing we will have to examine
> > this for some time. There is two days before the Passover the feast of
> > unleavened bread day before the Passover, Passover the Sabbath, they
> all
> > seem to run together that could be due to the fact that additional
> feast
> > days were added to the Jewish calendar as time went on from the giving
> of
> > the law, we see this from Judges to the kingdom years. Maybe this is
> why
> > it is difficult to understand readily.
> >
> >
> > Allen
> >
> > Carl Felland wrote:
> > This replaces my last post, which had formatting problems.
> >
> > Sunrise to sunrise day model for three days and three nights
> >
> >
> > We have been taught that the Jewish day that begins in the evening
> (dark)
> > is
> > the same as a Biblical day. The King James Version translation of
> Genesis
> > 1:5b seems to support this.
> >
> > Gen 1:5b (King James Version) And the evening and the morning were the
> > first
> > day.
> >
> > There are problems, however. Evening is defined primarily as dusk
> (Strongs
> > H6135) and morning is dawn (Strongs H1242). These two do not make up a
> > day.
> > The Literal Version shows something different. In this understanding,
> > YHWH's
> > creative work in the day is followed by evening (dusk) and then by
> morning
> > (dawn). The first day is completed. The next day's work begins at
> sunrise.
> >
> > Gen 1:5b (Literal Version of the Holy Bible) And there was evening, and
> > there was morning the first day.
> >
> > I would like to reexamine the three days and three nights that Yahshua
> was
> > in the heart of the earth in light of days that go from sunrise to
> > sunrise.
> > I use KJV unless otherwise noted without correcting for sacred names.
> >
> > Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
> And
> > Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
> >
> > Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous
> > generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to
> it,
> > but
> > the sign of the prophet Jonas:
> > Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
> > belly;
> > so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of
> the
> > earth.
> >
> > The text below (table when formatted correctly) shows a day (daylight
> > portion) and night order of three 24 hour days. The night begins with
> the
> > period of dusk (sunset to dark) and ends with the period of dawn (first
> > light to sunrise).
> >
> >
> > Day 1
> >
> > Dusk
> > Night 1
> > Dawn
> >
> > Day 2
> >
> > Dusk
> > Night 2
> > Dawn
> >
> > Day 3
> >
> > Dusk
> > Night 3
> > Dawn
> >
> >
> > It is hard to chart an evening to evening day in this way because
> sunset
> > to
> > sunset doesn't fit Biblically, so one is forced to go from dark to
> dark.
> > Another popular choice of beginnings of days is noon, which I have not
> yet
> > examined.
> >
> > Below is the scenario.
> >
> >
> > Abib 14: Passover
> >
> > Day 1
> >
> > The passover lamb was slain "at even" or literally "between the
> > evenings" (Lev 23:5) Rabbinical understanding is that the first evening
> is
> > noon the second is dusk.
> >
> > Yahshua was already in custody at the beginning of the daylight period
> > of the 14th (Mat 27:1, Mar 15:1). The counsel to put him to death (Mat
> > 27:1)
> > was carried out at the time of the Passover sacrifice.
> >
> > Death is one understanding of being in the heart of the earth (Jonah
> > 2:2).
> >
> > Night 1
> >
> > At evening (dusk) Joseph approaches Pilate for the body (Mat 27:57,
> > Mar 15:42). Permission had to be granted, then the body removed from
> the
> > cross, cleaned (I assume), wrapped using a hundred pounds of spices
> (Joh
> > 19:39), and put in place. The tomb had to be sealed.
> >
> > The women observed how his body was laid and "returned, and prepared
> > spices and ointments" (Luk 23:55-56)
> >
> > This seems like it would be hard to accomplish before dark. It may
> > have taken almost till dawn.
> >
> > Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
> >
> >
> > Abib 15: First day of Unleavened Bread
> >
> > Day 2
> >
> > The women "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luk
> > 23: 56b)
> >
> > The Jewish leaders, however, asked Pilate for a guard to make the tomb
> > secure until the third day (Mat 27:62-66). I assume that the day he
> died
> > was
> > the first day, so the guard was to be set to prevent the disciples from
> > stealing the body on the 15th or 16th.
> >
> > Night 2
> >
> > The women bought spices "after the sabbath" (Mar 16:1). This can be
> > translated "between the sabbaths" (Pollina, David, 2004. Reuniting the
> > Covenant, Tushiyah Press. p. 238.)
> >
> >
> > Abib 16: Wave Sheath Offering
> >
> > Day 3
> >
> > This was a day for a special service.
> >
> > Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted
> > for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
> >
> > Night 3
> >
> > It was still night when the women went to the tomb.
> >
> > Joh 20:1 The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when
> > it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away
> from
> > the
> > sepulchre.
> >
> > Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
> > first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see
> the
> > sepulchre.
> >
> > In the Greek sabbath is plural and the first of the week is "MIA
> > SABBATON" or "day one to the sabbaths (plural)."
> >
> > "As it began to dawn toward" is the same Greek word translated as
> > "drew on" in Luk 23:54 (See Night 1).
> >
> > The resurrection would have occurred at night, near the end of the
> > guard's watch.
> >
> >
> > The sunrise to sunrise scenario is the one that seems to best allow for
> a
> > literal fulfillment of the sign of Jonah. In inclusive reckoning parts
> of
> > the outer two periods (day 1 and night 3) would be counted towards the
> > three
> > days and three nights.
> >
> > An evening to evening scenario has problems. One problem is the
> > relationship
> > of Passover and Unleavened Bread. Passover is on the fourteenth (Num
> > 28:16)
> > and the first day of Unleavened Bread is the fifteenth (Num 28: 17).
> The
> > Passover is sacrificed mid-afternoon and the Passover meal is at night
> > (Exo
> > 12:10). Evening to evening days would break up these two Passover
> > activities; whereas, sunrise to sunrise days would not break them up.
> The
> > Passover meal at night on the fourteenth with a command to eat
> unleavened
> > bread (Exo 12:8) was included in the period that unleavened bread was
> to
> > be
> > eaten (Exo 12:18). I see the Jewish leaders in predawn hours before the
> > fourteenth in a hurry to turn Yashuah over, so they would not be
> defiled
> > and
> > could eat the Passover that night (Joh 18:28).
> >
> > Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire,
> and
> > unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.
> >
> > Exo 12:18 In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month at
> > even,
> > ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the
> > month
> > at even.
> >
> >
> > Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment:
> and
> > it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest
> > they
> > should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
> >
> >
> > The sunrise to sunrise scenario allows for a fulfilling of the Passover
> by
> > Messiah, it allows time for a proper burial, and it allows a literal
> three
> > days and three nights in the heart of the earth without having to
> resort
> > to
> > the high sabbath of the fifteenth not overlapping the weekly sabbath
> (Joh
> > 19:31). It reconciles the usage of "drew on" and "began to dawn
> towards"
> > taking a literal view of this Greek word as actually referring to
> getting
> > light. And it takes the mystery out of how it was still the day before
> the
> > sabbath (the fifteenth) when evening had come.
> >
> > Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the
> preparation,
> > that is, the day before the sabbath,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Other related posts:
