[bksvol-discuss] Re: Kipling's--and others'--poetry

  • From: "Gerald Hovas" <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:33:32 -0500

Amy and Elizabeth,

Actually, it has to do with the standards on which DAISY is based.  Markup
languages like the XML standard which DAISY uses focus on the structure of
the document, not the presentation.  You can specify presentation using
style sheets-that's what the CSS file is in the DAISY books does-but the
additional markup to specify that a block of text is poetry so that tools
for displaying the document can use a style for poetry that's included in
the style sheet is beyond what can be expected of volunteers.  Volunteers
would have to have sufficient computer skill to understand the principles
that the Stripper uses to mark up books as it strips headers for Bookshare
to allow this, and volunteers are having enough trouble with understanding
copyright and following the guidelines for filling out the forms.

Amy, perhaps one day the tools can be sophisticated enough to recognize the
formatting when it's specified the way Cindy is doing it with adjusting the
paragraph settings rather than with spaces and tabs, but Engineering is
overworked as it is, and I doubt they'd be able to get to it for a long time
unless that happens to be part of the NIMAS standard for K-12 textbooks
which they are currently working on supporting.

HTH

Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of E.
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:10 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Kipling's--and others'--poetry

Amy it has nothing to do with bookshare, the part about tabs and multiple 
spaces.  it has to do with speech,braille displays and how things show up 
on them.  Somebody else will give you a better explanation.

E.
At 11:47 PM 9/19/2006, you wrote:

>One for my side Thank you Cindy.  There ought to be some way that the 
>geniuses at bookshare  - I mean the ones that program their computers - 
>could program the computers to recognize indentations, be they tabs or 
>spaces or periods but something. even wordperfect  got those right even 
>when they could not get 2 pp. of print the same size. The pages of poetry 
>I vallidated with Kurzweil were easy to correct the few where the scansion 
>was off. What do the publishers tell their computers ?
>
>I will download the books you mention as soon as I can download 
>anything.  I have VRS again and the Unpack and I have finally gotten rid 
>of Openbook and the voice that came with it which may have been why I 
>could not get VRS when I tried it earlier this week. So I now have now 
>other reading program except Viktor and I need some pure escapism and 
>tried to downloard Mary Stewart's Merlin quartet but nothing happened. I 
>wrote John and then tried his suggestions but still no good. So I am 
>waiting to hear back again.
>
>In the meantime, I submitted the Kurzweil scan of the Complete Verse of 
>Rudyard Kipling, the  Definitive Edition or, as I call it, the good, the 
>bad, the ugly, and the really great.But trying to work on it with the 
>programs I have was masochistic. I don't know how it will be to try and 
>validate an rtf file originally from something other than Kurzweil   I 
>tried it with Openbook so I don't know if it would have been different 
>with a book that was scanned by openbook.
>
>I will wait for now until I find out how to use the programs I have which 
>I hope will be soon as there are books I already know I want to validate 
>and have agreed to do so as soon as I can.  Tolkien and Faulkner among
them.
>
>Wwish me luck and feel free to try the Kipling if it is accepted.
>
>Amy
>omst
>back to looking for the queen's cats.
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:48 PM
>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Kipling's--and others'--poetry
>
>
>>Really? People were saying they preferred paragraph
>>indenting to skipped spaces between paragraphs, and
>>sometimes skipping lines, especially if there's a lot
>>of dialogue, gives pagination problems, even when I
>>try to length the page.
>>
>>Then there's no way to format poetry?
>>
>>Would you please download And Still I Rise, by Maya
>>Angelou, and also Silk, by Baricco and tell me what
>>they look like? Or sound like? Silk isn't a poem but
>>was written sort of like one so I validated it keeping
>>the author's line lengths. I think I used tabs,
>>though. I didn't know about adjusting line length
>>using the line indentation setting in paragrpahs in
>>the format file.
>>
>>I can't think of any poems I've done recently except
>>for quotations as part of something else. Perhpas if
>>you have time you could download Transit of Venus and
>>check page 81 and see if the quotation at the bottom
>>of the page is indented.
>>
>>Maye fixing things so tabbing doesn't appear should be
>>put higher up on the Wish List. Amy's right about the
>>importance of poetry being formatted correctly,
>>especially for students. I wonder what the Chinese
>>poetry I did a few years ago looks like--and I spent
>>so much time trying to get that right. sigh
>>
>>Cindy
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>You'll probably find that paragraph indenting is
>>>gone as well.
>>>
>>>Jake
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 6:01 PM
>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Kipling's--and
>>>others'--poetry
>>>
>>>
>>> > Amy,
>>> >
>>> > If you can submit it in rtf I can format poetry as
>>>the
>>> > author intended.
>>> >
>>> > Before I used tabs, but quite a bit after that we
>>>were
>>> > told that tabs don't do any good. Too bad, because
>>> > that was so easy. However, there is a way, though
>>>it
>>> > takes longer, to re-set the line margin. I'd use
>>>the
>>> > space bar, which would be easier, but somebody
>>> > mentioned that  the spaces are annoying. Is that
>>>just
>>> > for those of you who listen, or also for those of
>>>you
>>> > who use braille? Is there a way you can turn off
>>> > whatever is annoying about the spaces? Using
>>>spaces to
>>> > indent lines of poetry would be so much easier,
>>>less
>>> > time-consuming, than using the line setting. smile
>>> >
>>> > Cindy
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --- Amy Goldring Tajalli
>>> > <agoldringtajalli@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> amen.  I looked for Kipling and there was only
>>>one
>>> >> volume very well recorded
>>> >> but when I wanted to hear it again It had
>>> >> disappeared.  I got rfb to record
>>> >> what turned out to be the complete kipling but
>>>then
>>> >> had to deal with people
>>> >> reading poetry with no real knowledge of how to
>>>do
>>> >> it and with difficulty
>>> >> pronouncing some of the Names and names of places
>>>-
>>> >> understandable if you
>>> >> are not familiar with India or 19th Century
>>>British
>>> >> army terminology. Though
>>> >> even today I would guess it would not be hard to
>>> >> find kids who have read the
>>> >> poetry in The Jungle Books or the Just So Stories
>>>or
>>> >> their parents, too. I
>>> >> appreciate the work rfb volunteers went through
>>>to
>>> >> record that tome but I
>>> >> wanted the poems as he wrote them so I scanned
>>>the
>>> >> book with Kurzweil and am
>>> >> now trying to make sure the poems scan properly
>>> >> (scan as in lines as K wrote
>>> >> them  of the length he wanted them).  I may have
>>>to
>>> >> submith the Kurzweil
>>> >> copy which scan (copied) the pages correctly but
>>> >> they don't always come out
>>> >> that way and I was warned that theBookshare
>>>computer
>>> >> would ignore the lines
>>> >> much as they did in other books of poetry I have
>>> >> gotten but I can only try
>>> >> to get someone to realize the importanct of the
>>> >> lines. However, I have hopes
>>> >> even If I cannot do it.  In any event it has to
>>>be
>>> >> better, even with a
>>> >> computer voice, that what I heard. in the well
>>>meant
>>> >> recording.
>>> >>
>>> >> Amy
>>> >> omst
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Shelley L. Rhodes"
>>><juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 3:25 PM
>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] NLS's Taopes and
>>> >> electronic files
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> > Someone, I believe it was on here was wondering
>>> >> why we should work on
>>> >> > books
>>> >> > already recorded on cassette by NLS.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I have a story to tell and how to illustrate a
>>> >> good advantage for doing
>>> >> > just
>>> >> > that.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I borrowed from my local cooperating branch a
>>>copy
>>> >> of
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Rilla of Ingleside.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > It arrived her the other day and I popped it
>>>into
>>> >> the player, have been
>>> >> > wanteding to read this and had Just finished
>>> >> Rainbow valley.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Well... the tape was old, and warped, and no
>>> >> matter all the "usual"
>>> >> > tricks,
>>> >> > I couldn't get the tape to play properly.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > So... after being disgusted by it, putting it
>>>back
>>> >> into its little green
>>> >> > box, slapping the string on the latch and
>>>thinking
>>> >> I would call them today
>>> >> > about it, I had a brainstorm.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I got online, found Rilla of Ingleside in the
>>> >> Bookshare collection and
>>> >> > grabbed it, popped it into the book courier and
>>> >> all was well again.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I do like listening to human readers though
>>>some
>>> >> of them are quite grating
>>> >> > on me, but I still like the flexibility of
>>> >> choosing what format works best
>>> >> > for me.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Smile.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > This isn't the first time this has happened,
>>> >> but... it was the most
>>> >> > recent.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Shelley L. Rhodes B.S. Ed, CTVI
>>> >> > and Judson, guiding golden
>>> >> > juddysbuddy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> > Guide Dogs For the Blind Inc.
>>> >> > Graduate Alumni Association Board
>>> >> > www.guidedogs.com
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Dog ownership is like a rainbow.
>>> >> > Puppies are the joy at one end.
>>> >> > Old dogs are the treasure at the other.
>>> >> > Carolyn Alexander
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
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>>> >
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