[bksvol-discuss] Re: Do blind people use Daisy (Was are volunteers really that important any more)
- From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks for the explanation, Donna. Yes, that does make sense. smile
Cindy
Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and books-being-scanned
list available at sites below
Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
--- On Fri, 8/28/09, Donna Goodin <goodindo@xxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Donna Goodin <goodindo@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Do blind people use Daisy (Was are volunteers really
that important any more)
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Friday, August 28, 2009, 4:32 AM
Hi Cindy,
I think it may have been my message that confused you. Blind, people, just
like any other group, don't all do things the same way. In fact, the vblind
community has for a long time had something of a rep for being fragmented and
having multiple groups arguing for different--and sometimes opposite--things.
This is due to many different factors, one of which is that the term blindness
can apply to anyone from those who can read large print, to those who can't see
at all, and many points in between. As you can imagine, one's level of vision
will naturally impact one's needs or preferences in most areas of life.
Another facgtor may be the type of education/training that the individual has
received. There are some blind students, for example who are raised completely
with speech only and who never learn to read braille. This is in part because
braille is very expensive, and many schools simply choose to forego that
expense. Others are taught
to read braille, and may or may not choose that as their primary mode for
reading.
Daisy is primarily oriented toward people who want to listen to a book. If
you notice, most people who've written in and talked about using Daisy, have
also talked about listening. My preferred format is braille. I don't download
Daisy books at all. My feeling is that there's nothing that Daisy does, that
you can't do yourself if you know how to make good use of your word processor.
And, when I do want an audio book, I go for books from Audible.com, which are
actually read by real human beings. So, the issue that I raised was that I
think Bookshare is focusing primarily on those who can either see or who want
to listen to a book. Evan is right, that that is a larger segment of the
member population. My point is that in its beginnings bookshare was a very
braille-friendly place, and I think its becoming noticeably less so.
So, I hope that makes more sense.
Best,
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: robert tweedy <roberttweedy@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 12:13 AM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?
Cindy, I download the daisy file and use it with kurzweil or the victor stream
and there are other devices out there as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:40 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?
I'm curious. Don't blind people use Daisy as well as or instead of Braille? I
was under the impression (possibly the mis-impression) that that was how
people listened to the books on bookshare
Cindy
Wish List (i.e., books wanted added to the collection) and books-being-scanned
list available at sites below
Wish List: https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Bookshare+Wish+List
Books Being Scanned List:
https://wiki.benetech.org/display/BSO/Books+Being+Scanned+List
--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Denise Thompson <deniset@xxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Denise Thompson <deniset@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 2:37 PM
Judy
I'm behind the times. I didn't realize BS had broadened it's focus. I'm glad if
it benefits you. I just don't want people who are blind to get lost in the
process since that was the original reason for BS's existance. Right now all I
know is that its getting harder for us to contribute. Probably we've gone about
as far as we can with this discussion on the list. Hopefully BS staff are
listening and will consider what has been said.
Denise
At 12:38 PM 8/27/2009, you wrote:
> Denise, you asked about who is benefiting from all the changes. I can
> certainly understand your frustration. smile
>
> I think that many of the the changes are coming about because Bookshare's
> members are expanding to include more disabled individuals like myself who
> are fully sighted but have other serious disabilities that prevent us from
> reading printed books.
>
> A bookshare book that "sounds" fine to a blind individual is often virtually
> unreadable to a sighted disabled person who relies on visually reading the
> book from their computer screen.
>
> Imagine listening to a book where the narrator is randomly shouting one word,
> whispering the next, or stopping in the middle of a sentence then starting
> again as if it were a new sentence. It would be an unpleasant experience to
> have to read books if this was the norm.
>
> That's the equivalent of what it's like to visually read a book that hasn't
> had the formatting of a book cleaned up in the way that's now being
> suggested. smile.
>
> Things in written text that don't make a difference to a blind reader make an
> enormous difference to a sighted disabled reader. For example, having the
> chapter titles in larger fonts makes a huge difference in readability for
> visual navigation, too, not just for DAISY navigation.
>
> One thing that doesn't make much difference to me at least, however, is the
> inclusion of images in fiction books, as least those that are geared towards
> a young adult or adult audience. They're nice to have, sort of like having a
> narrator who can speak in different accents for different characters in a
> book, but not necessary. smile. The same might be true of
> mostly-picture-books for children, but I can't speak to that.
>
> I hope that gives at peek into why I believe some of the changes are
> happening. smile.
>
> Judy s.
>
>
> Denise Thompson wrote:
>> I think we have noticed it, but no one right now is prepared to deal with it
>> since it was once the foundation of the organization itself. It was one of
>> the big draws in the beginning which led to many news stories and funding.
>> The other issue for me is who is benefitting from all the changes. I mean
>> the changes in terms of the correct preciseness of books scanned now.
>> Certainly phe push to get rid of garbled text and scannos is wonderful and
>> can easily be done today with impprooved OCR software. The other things
>> though I wonder. It's true that I read in the Daisy format very seldom.
>> Mostly I quickly convert my books to text and put them on my phone to read.
>> When I'm listening to a book, it sounds exactly the same to me if it has
>> paragraph marks at the end of each line or double paragraph marks for real
>> paragraphs It sounds the same if chapter titles are in 16 point font or in
>> 12 point. The only real factor that affects me as a blind person listening
>> to the book is the cleanness of the scan. I know that the other factors
>> mentioned work better in a Daisy translation and create better divisions on
>> a daisy player. Perhaps for text books this is more important, but for
>> reading
for pleasure, it makes no difference in listening, but makes a whole lot of
difference in scanning, proofing and getting a book accepted into the library.
>> My last thought on this is a concern about pictures. I foresee a time when
>> people who are blind will no longer be able to scan because it will become
>> important that the pictures be included. Now I go through the new books and
>> there is the added choice of downloading daisy with images. In the last book
>> I scanned I was aware there were some pictures, but I'm not able to really
>> deal with them because I can't tell how over all they are affecting the page
>> lay out. I deleted them when I knew one was there. I knew one was there
>> primarily by accident if it was at the top of the page as I checked for a
>> paragraph mark I would be told a picture was there. I don't know if I got
>> them all or if some still remained. The book was accepted, but I don't know
>> what the proofer had to do in order to make that happened. I may not be
>> expressing myself well, but its almost now as if we're creating books that
>> would pass in the sighted world with all the same bells and
whistles. It seems that maybe we're loosing sight of the mission a bit. But,
again, I guess if the books can be done with all the bells and whistles more
quickly without us and we still get the benefit of the greater numbers, maybe
it doesn't matter.
>> Denise
>>
>>
>> At 10:36 AM 8/27/2009, you wrote:
>>> If I had a stack of those gay and lesbian books on hand I can imagine that
>>> I might send them off to Bookshare and I might be out the postage and the
>>> cost of the books if I had bought them, but I would also be out many hours
>>> of volunteer labor to get them into the collection. I am not particularly
>>> interested in children's picture books, so I have not downloaded any, but I
>>> would think that outsourcers could handle them. I think that Pavi, in fact,
>>> said that the more difficult books have priority for being outsourced. The
>>> main thing I have noticed, though, is that the proportion of books added to
>>> the collection by means other than volunteers is now considerably greater
>>> than the proportion added by volunteers and that proportion is growing.
>>> Also, a good many books already in the collection by means of volunteers
>>> are being replaced by other means. Furthermore, the proportion that are
>>> being added by volunteers could , in most cases, be done faster and just
as easily or more easily, by those other means. No one has mentioned it. In
fact, the Bookshare staff is proceeding away with more and more innovations for
volunteers. What I was really wondering is whether volunteering is becoming
obsolete and nobody has noticed it.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Can a nation be free if it oppresses other nations? It cannot." Vladimir
>>> Lenin
>>>
>>> The Militant: http://www.themilitant.com
>>> <http://wwww.themilitant.com>Pathfinder Press: http://wwwpathfinderpress.com
>>> Granma International: http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>>> _
>>>
>>> table with 2 columns and 6 rows
>>> Subj:Â
>>> [bksvol-discuss] Re: Are volunteers really that important anymore?  Â
>>> Date:Â
>>> 8/27/2009 4:25:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time Â
>>> From:Â
>>> rwiley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
>>> Reply-to:Â
>>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
>>> To:Â
>>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Â
>>> Sent from the Internet
>>> (Details)Â
>>> table end
>>>
>>> Roger, this is an excellent summary of some of the things I have also been
>>> thinking.Â
>>>
>>> When I first started with bookshare a couple of years ago, there were tons
>>> of books whose rating was fair, and in most cases that designation was kind.
>>> But, the books were available, and for a group starving for reading
>>> material, they were great to have. Â
>>>
>>> However, our tastes--and our tolerances--have improved. Where once we would
>>> accept day-old bread because we were starving, we now want freshly baked
>>> goods.
>>> (Wow, I must be hungry).Â
>>>
>>> So, I think your comments about the changing role of the volunteer are
>>> right on target. There will always be a need for volunteers to do the
>>> specialty books
>>> (such as children's books with pictures), and books of special interest I
>>> can't imagine NLS having a whole category of gay and lesbian books, nor can
>>> I imagine the department of education wanting their money going toward that
>>> end. (I'm not being critical, just can't imagine it happening.) But, we
>>> volunteers
>>> can make it happen. We can also put books in the collection from those
>>> publishers who won't cooperate with us (after all, we have the law on our
>>> side).Â
>>>
>>> In short, I see the role of the volunteer changing, but not going away any
>>> time soon.Â
>>>
>>> There's an old Chinese proverb that says "may you live in interesting
>>> times." I've always wondered whether that was a curse, challenge or a
>>> blessing. Whatever
>>> it is, we live in very interesting times with bookshare.Â
>>>
>>> BobÂ
>>>
>>> “We know the future will outlast all of us, but I believe that all of us
>>> will live on in the future we make,�
>>> Senator Edward M. Kennedy
>>>
>>> block quote
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From:
>>> Rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx
>>>
>>> To:
>>> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:22 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Are volunteers really that important anymore?
>>>
>>> I am not taking a position one way or another. I just thought I would
>>> express some thoughts and questions that have been running through my mind.
>>> I have
>>> been involved with Bookshare for just a little over a year now and have
>>> seen some considerable changes. I have also surmised changes that came
>>> about before
>>> I came along. As I understand it the name Bookshare was literal in the
>>> beginning. That is, people posted the books they had scanned for themselves
>>> and
>>> actually shared them with others who were posting books they had scanned
>>> for themselves. That would have meant that the only source of books
>>> Bookshare
>>> had for the most part was from the volunteers. Since then, though,
>>> publishers have come to contribute large numbers of books. Bookshare is
>>> acquiring books
>>> from donations or from buying them and scanning them in house or
>>> outsourcing them. It actually appears that the number of books added to the
>>> collection
>>> by means other than volunteers is considerably greater than those added by
>>> the volunteers. I have noticed other things being done that volunteers do
>>> that
>>> may be being done more prolifically by other means than by volunteers. On
>>> more than one occasion now I have made a quality report for a book that
>>> contained
>>> an error or errors. To my surprise the whole entire book was promptly
>>> replaced by an outsourcer. That makes me wonder why we should bother with
>>> scanning
>>> a BSO. Volunteers are more and more frequently finding that the books they
>>> intend to scan are being added by outsourcers before the volunteer get a
>>> chance
>>> to add it. Yes, that means that the volunteer can work on something else,
>>> but it still remains that work that would have been done by a volunteer is
>>> being
>>> done otherwise. We were asked for some suggestions about gaps in the
>>> collection and I made a suggestion. As I scan the new books lists I see
>>> that it appears,
>>> to my gratification, that my suggestions are being acted on. I am pleased,
>>> but I cannot help noticing that it is being done without volunteers. If time
>>> is money I wonder if it might be more efficient to donate money to
>>> Bookshare to buy books and pay outsourcers rather than donate our time. If
>>> we want certain
>>> books in the collection I wonder if it might be faster and more efficient
>>> to just donate the books rather than put so much of our own labor into them.
>>> As things change devices to accomplish our goals become obsolete when they
>>> are replaced by better devices and certain jobs become obsolete when better
>>> and mor efficient ways are found to do things. I wonder if Bookshare
>>> volunteering is a job that is becoming obsolete. Since we have not even
>>> heard hints
>>> from Bookshare that new volunteers are no longer welcome or that volunteers
>>> can give up on certain jobs I wonder if Bookshare volunteering is becoming
>>> obsolete and the folks at Bookshare do not even realize it yet. It does
>>> seem that the volunteers are becoming less important to Bookshare and that
>>> Bookshare
>>> could probably now do quite well without volunteers while still adding
>>> books at a rapid rate. I am not saying that is good or bad. I am not saying
>>> that
>>> I want it to be like that or that I don't want it to be like that. I am
>>> just wondering and thinking. What do you guys think about what I have said?Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "Can a nation be free if it oppresses other
>>> nations? It cannot." Vladimir Lenin   Â
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The Militant:
>>> http://www.themilitant.com <http://www.themilitant.com/>
>>> Pathfinder Press:
>>> http://www.pathfinderpress.com <http://www.pathfinderpress.com/>
>>> Granma International:
>>> http://granma.cu/ingles/index.html
>>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â _
>>> block quote end
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