Sorry; I wasn't suggesting that observers "cheat" . . . I was just observing
that to me, if one makes two lists while standing on the wharf at the
Jeffersonville waterfront, one for the birds seen in KY and one for the birds
seen in IN, that both lists would/could be considered "complete" for the two
hotspots that are being covered simultaneously. In some ways, if birders would
actually do that and Cornell would accept them as complete lists, they would
contain more accurate site specific data because you would be splitting out the
observations into more discrete units of area.
Cornell didn't want for data to be collected that way, though, and I totally
agree that birder desires to "list" by political boundary, and for traditional
record-keepers such as myself to do the same, totally messes up what Cornell
wanted to accomplish with their eBird protocols.
To me, either system of recording birds will result in lists that can only be
used for certain things, but a lot of such spots are at the interface of
terrestrial and aquatic habitats, where there is some utility to splitting up
the birds encountered by habitat . . . .
bpb, Louisville
-----Original Message-----
From: <roseannamd@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Dec 6, 2023 5:57 PM
To: brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: BIRDKY <birdky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [birdky] Re: INFO: Ohio River at Louisville Franklin's Gull . . . .
If you don’t report everything that you can identify it’s an
incomplete list. ebird central and ebird leaders couldn’t be more clear
on that. I don’t see any reason to cheat.
As far as submitting your checklist to the exact spot where you’re
standing, that doesn’t make any sense. There are many eBird hotspots
located in the lake, pond or a location in the hotspot where you might actually
never be physically present, but it best represents your birding.
Roseanna Denton
Science Hill
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023, <brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)> wrote:
I might add that I don't necessarily agree with Cornell about calling a
"Jeffersonville Waterfront (KY)" list "incomplete" if you put down everything
you see/heard on and over the Kentucky portion of the Ohio River off the Jeff
waterfront. I mean, your list *does* include all of the birds that you detected
within the site as named.
Cornell's problem with all of this is that when they devised eBird, they didn't
come up with a good way of dealing with lists of birds being detected from
*miles* away as viewed through all of our fancy optics. What they really want
for the most useful modeling are single point, stationary counts of birds
detected within a relatively small radius (this allows correlation of the lists
to habitats if the area of coverage is limited). This type of data gathering is
most closely approached by the timed and distance limited Breeding Bird
Surveys. Those utilize 50 point counts 1/2 mile apart over a 24.5 mile route.
Some crazy people enter their 50-point BBS routes into eBird in the form of 50
3-minute stationary counts each year, but Cornell would never get birders to
submit lists in that kind of format on a regular basis, so they tried to meld
the data gathering tolerances of us lazy birders with what they wanted to
achieve . . . .
bpb, Louisville
-----Original Message-----
From: <gregory.l.walker@xxxxxxxxx (mailto:gregory.l.walker@xxxxxxxxx)>
Sent: Dec 6, 2023 2:31 PM
To: Mark Elkins <melkins31@xxxxxxxxx (mailto:melkins31@xxxxxxxxx)>
Cc: <brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)>, BIRDKY
<birdky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:birdky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)>
Subject: [birdky] Re: INFO: Ohio River at Louisville Franklin's Gull . . . .
This gets complicated, and depends partly on individual goals (e.g,. if you try
to keep accurate state or county lists). From eBird's perspective, they prefer
"Complete" lists and want any list submitted as "Complete" to include all birds
observed from where YOU were, regardless of where the bird is. In this case,
eBird's preference with the Franklin's gull would be to submit one complete
list from the Indiana hotspot, even if the gull was swimming mid-river in
Kentucky (because you are observing from Indiana).
But eBird's preferences are not the only consideration, and eBird acknowledges
that state lists / county lists matter. Thus it is fine if you want to also
submit a separate list if the bird enters Kentucky. Only condition is that your
answer to "Is this a complete list of the birds you were able to identify?" is
no. It's an incomplete list assuming you are leaving off other birds you can
see in Indiana. Sometimes this matters more than others. I'll make up a totally
impossible, never gonna happen scenario: Let's say an American Flamingo shows
up on the Ohio River! Both Indiana and Kentucky are going to want separate
lists if that bird is in both states:-)
support/solutions/articles/48001059718-ebird-policies-for-special-birding-circumstances#anchorBirdingBorders
(https://support.ebird.org/en/support/solutions/articles/48001059718-ebird-policies-for-special-birding-circumstances#anchorBirdingBorders)
Greg Walker
Louisville
On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 11:59 AM Mark Elkins <melkins31@xxxxxxxxx
(mailto:melkins31@xxxxxxxxx)> wrote:
Thanks for the info. Do you know what we should do when the bird crosses the
boarder in a single outing? Some of my pictures have the bird on the Indiana
side and some on the Kentucky side. Would we break this up into two different
checklists?
Thanks,
Mark
On Dec 6, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Greg Walker <gregory.l.walker@xxxxxxxxx
(mailto:gregory.l.walker@xxxxxxxxx)> wrote:
It looks like the hotspot you actually want for birds on the docks is the one
named "Jeffersonville Overlook/Landing (IN)." The one named "Jeffersonville
Waterfront (KY)" is in Kentucky. There is also a "Jeffersonville Boat Docks
(KY)," which is ironically the farthest from the boat docks - it is placed down
by the circular turnaround. That last one might be redundant.
I haven't been to see the Franklin's yet, but I realize now that I don't think
I have ever actually used the "Jeffersonville Overlook/Landing (IN)" hotspot
(and probably should have). I suspect that the area where most people park is
actually closest to "Jeffersonville Waterfront (KY)" and so eBird suggests that
as the first option. Thanks for pointing that out!
Greg Walker
Louisville
On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 8:46 AM <brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:brainard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)> wrote:
I presume that most everyone photographing the Franklin's Gull on the docks at
the Jeffersonville, Indiana, waterfront is not paying attention to the state
line here. As stated regarding multiple rare birds at this location in the
past, the docks and waters about twice the distance of the length of the docks
is *INDIANA* . . .
This means that all of the photos being posted to eBird to *Kentucky* are in
error regarding the bird's location. I would encourage folks to alter the
mapped location for the gull in eBird so that it is accurate. There is an eBird
hostpot for the Jeffersonville Waterfront (IN). In fact, this is one of the
rare times when eBird protocol matches what is going on in the field.
As a reminder, here is an image of the USGS topo showing the state line at this
location: https://flic.kr/p/quVGjD
*IF* the Franklin's Gull is out in the water roughly more than two times the
length of the docks, you can enter it into eBird for the "Jeffersonville
Waterfront (KY)" hotspot; otherwise it should be reported at the Indiana
hotspot.
bpb, Louisville
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