Hmm. I'll buy in to the automotive argument and make some observations. Brian is also an automotive person too. So for us at least this is a subject of some knowledge. I have seen it all as an automotive tradesman. I learnt to rewind armatures, set generator regulators and repair all manner of things. I saw the revolution of electronics and computing evolve from diodes in a box to, wow! Now I left the trade because I was bored intellectually and could not earn a living that I was capable of. I earn twice now what I could earn as a tradesman who has worked in every field automotive or transport. I have pioneered ways done things there are no text books on, without exaggeration. Intellectually bored. Technology has taken a trade that had a high degree of craftsmanship and pride and supplanted the craft with a paradigm driven by component replacement, not repair. Now that technology is not to be sneezed at, the superb QUALITY of motor vehicles, and contrary to common belief, their relative longevity to their predecessors, is extraordinary. Comfort, safety and performance as well as environmentally more efficient resource use has all been for the good. I could wax lyrical about a recent experience with a racing engine but I won't, save to say that modern production quality for dime a dozen parts, first made over forty years ago, GOBSMACKED ME. We don't have to machine and weight pistons for performance engines because out of the box, they are near as damnit! In many cases even better than we could do it manually, saving us hours of painstaking labour in machining work! And they are cheaper now than they were then, over the counter, before the added labour of balancing and matching to size! This example alone, rests my case, while human craft and labour is removed, the quality has improved, at reduced real cost. Would you like more? However, from a personal and unsentimental point of view, I have seen the quality of the trade fall. We don't get the same quality of young men and women we used to because they are not needed, instead, they go and do degrees. What we do get, is young people who previously were the future storemen and packers, the labourers. People who can't spell, barely read, and have very little general education or life experience. Many have never been to places like museums etc. The same or more technical service and repair work is being achieved on vehicles with far more computing power than the moonshots; and how? Well, that's because the diagnostic computer systems take the mental dexterity out of the equation. Previously if you needed a diagnostic repair performed on the electrical system or an electronic component, you would call someone like me. I would have a look, test the system with a variety of tools and other equipment like hammers ;-), and make a conclusion. Now, any bone head can take the scan tool down, follow "simple" foolproof (literally) instructions, wait a few minutes, press a few buttons and... This is what's wrong - "it". Take "it" out, buy a new one and fit that. So I guess in Steve's case, we could improve the lot of the Chinese harvesters by employing them in a dealer workshop! Don't laugh. Why do you have to speak to a dealership 'service advisor' rather than the mechanic on the floor? Most of the mechanics can't speak Eng-rish, let alone Australian! Warren Lewington Technical Writer Metso Minerals Arndell Park, Sydney. NSW, Australia. ************************************************** To post a message to austechwriter, send the message to austechwriter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx To subscribe to austechwriter, send a message to austechwriter-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "subscribe" in the Subject field. To unsubscribe, send a message to austechwriter-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe" in the Subject field. To search the austechwriter archives, go to www.freelists.org/archives/austechwriter To contact the list administrator, send a message to austechwriter-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx **************************************************