[YAM] Re: Copying text in YAM

  • From: Don Cox <doncox@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: yam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:16:37 +0000

On 02/09/07, Jens Langner wrote:
> Hello Bill,
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 14:11:41 +0100, Bill Eaves wrote:
> [...]
> [...]
>>> The main issue/problem with the autoclipping is, that it clearly
>>> violates any style guide (even Amiga style guides) and the general
>>> usability of an application. Just try to imaging that you have
>>> something important in your clipboard. As soon as you select
>>> something in the texteditor it will immediately overwrite the
>>> content of the clipboard, even if that wasn't what you wanted to do.
>> Good point. I'll agree with that. Of course in my case yesterday I
>> was
>> pasting stuff that had been kept in my clipboard and not the things
>> I
>> thought I was copying from YAM.
>> Surely the user can choisse the operation they wish to use however.
> Sorry, but IMHO an application should do whatever possible to avoid
> problems/issues/mistakes of a user. And introducing yet-another option
> to YAM doesn't help here. We have done a design decision now and opted
> against the autoclipping because it proofed unintuitive and
> problematic as you understood yourself. 

It is NOT unintuitive. It is fast, easy and convenient. 

I don't know who these all-powerful "we" are, but I wish they would ask
the users of Amigas before removing major features.

Making something work like Linux is NOT an advantage.

> In addition, the new
> functionality now allows to use a consistent way of presenting the
> copy&paste operations to the user. Now the main window has an "Edit"
> menu as well as the read and write window got them and how a user
> would expect them to work/presented. Previously the whole copy&paste
> implementation was cumbersome and not consientent at all.
I think you have been listening to lectures instead of actually using an

> This was just one point of the picture. Copy&Paste operations are more
> or less standardized and you would have a hard time to find any modern
> OS who instantly copies some selected stuff to the clipboard. 

That is precisely why one would prefer to go on using the Amiga. It is
hard to find a "modern" OS that is equally nice to use.

Why do you want to drag the Amiga down to the level of Linux?

> Only
> very old X11 implementations/window managers did that as well, but
> then also only because this was the fastest thing to implement things.
> Now that we are able to present the user a consistent an intuitive way
> of performing copy&paste operations everything is technically more
> smooth really. Copying text, especially from text editor like gadgets
> always have to use the two-folded process of marking and then
> explicitly copying stuff no matter if the gadget is read only or not.

Just because bad design is widespread is no reason to copy it.

Would you put the Close gadget at the top right of a window just because
Microsoft do?

> Sorry, but we already had this discussion on our OS4 developer mailing
> list and opted against the autoclipping, ergo you see MUI and friends
> adapting to it.

What has OS4 to do with it? Hardly anyone is using OS4.

> It only seems to be intuitive to you because you got used to it. I
> will hardly take you a week to get used to the more consistent forced
> Amiga+C usage for a copy operation. In addition, you will sooner or
> later be thankful to have your clipboard buffer not overwritten just
> because you accidently clicked in the texteditor.

That is not a problem at all. 
> [...]
>> The Amiga is not "another OS" so if we have a better way why bow down
>> to Linux and Woindoze and do things teir way ?
> We are not bowing to anyone. We are going the standarized and most
> logical way. And autoclipping never proofed compatible to the Amiga
> style guide itself. It was "invented" by MUI developers and then also
> only because it was the fastest way of solving the issue of having to
> deal with more than one text editor like gadget in an application and
> dealing with copy&paste.

It was invented and it is a great invention.

> And that's the mistake. As I tried to point out, just selecting text
> doesn't automatically mean you want to copy that stuff to the
> clipboard. 

It does in YAM and IBrowse. Why else would you select it?

> Perhaps you want to select it to just outline it for
> yourself, for someone else or for doing a screenshot?!? 


> Only when you
> press Amiga+C, any application should know that you now want to copy
> something to the clipboard. Just selecting something doesn't mean you
> want to copy something to the clipboard.

Yes, it does.

>> Keep this feature, lets have a poll to see what other YAM users
>> think.
> Sure you can do this. But this won't solve anything. Often users
> simply don't have the technical view than developers have. 

Don't be arrogant. The computer is for the users, it is not a private
playground for developers.

> I am not
> saying their voice isn't worth to be counted. But I think I have
> outlined now quite a lot why the old autoclip behaviour was just a
> workaround and why we are now happy to announce that we have a real
> copy&paste operation implemented which conforms to style guides.
You have presented only one argument, which is "Linux does it that way".


> No it won't because I haven't changed the defaults of those
> components. Per default a TextEditor.mcc object will still do
> autoclipping, but then the documentation was changed to instruct every
> developer to disable that obsolete feature per default.
> Sorry Bill, but please try to understand why we think the autoclipping
> is just an old method of having implemented copy&paste. 

It isn't. It is a newer and better method, at least for YAM and IBrowse.

The situation is different in Pagestream, where you may want to do
several things with selected text. But in YAM and IBrowse, you ONLY want
to copy. 

> It is simply
> not intuitive to explain to a user why copy&paste works different for
> e.g. the write window and the read window and why the heck his
> clipboard gets overwritten each time he accidently marked some text.
> Now everything is more consistent really and I am sure you will
> support that as soon as you have adapted to the new behaviour for a
> few weeks.

There's nothing to explain. It is intuitive and obvious. 

"To copy text, just select it."  Easy.

Don Cox

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