Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq. Assistant Professor Wright State University Personal Website: http://seanwilson.org SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860 New Discussion Groups! http://ludwig.squarespace.com/discussionfora/ ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Martin N Brampton <martin.lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: quickphilosophy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 11:31:06 PM Subject: Re: [quickphilosophy] Re: Leibnizian Interlude The complaint that questions about idealism and realism amount to "spewing nonsense" has a number of defects. An obvious one is that it lacks charity. It isn't the case that the work of the great philosophers who discussed such issues can be written off as totally misguided. Philosophers are great not because they were "right" (a questionable attribution at the best of times) but because they looked at questions insightfully. The fact that someone disagrees with them is of little interest, whereas the reasons for disagreeing with them may be much more interesting. Wittgenstein seems guilty of a lack of charity, and some of his followers take this to extremes. Another obvious one is that it is a criticism that is applied selectively. The TLP famously (notoriously?) concludes by saying that its propositions are nonsensical, yet serve as elucidation. It seems that a "nonsensical" text may yet clarify matters. One might therefore wish to say that what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander. A more direct consideration is that the argument for dismissing all talk of realism and idealism is weak. G M Strander (http://revistas.um.es/daimon/article/view/8461/8231) analyzes the arguments given in the Blue Book with a view to clarification rather than criticism. He summarises the basic argument as: * Metaphysics is misguided * The R/A distinction is metaphysical -> The R/A distinction is misguided A related argument is characterised as: * Metaphysics involves taking grammatical claims as scientific claims * Taking something for what it is not is misguided -> Metaphysics is misguided. Strander brings out a number of assumptions that provide the basis for the claims above, picking out two as most questionable: * Philosophy is simply the study of grammar * Common sense is but the grammar of ordinary language None of these assertions is obviously (or maybe unobviously) true. One immediate problem is that it is not clear that the distinction between grammatical and scientific claims is any less problematic than the distinctions that may be made between different varieties of realism and idealism. It would probably be quite easy to obtain a consense around the dismissal of the more extravagant reaches of metaphysics, following Kant and others. But it needs a better argument to dismiss the whole of what is usually regarded as metaphysics. Even if one were to focus entirely on language, my impression is that questions about what is effectively the R/A distinction looms large. Saussure develops linguistics with arguments against viewing language as a nomenclature (as does Wittgenstein himself in PI when criticizing Augustine's remarks). The conclusion from the evidence presented by Saussure is decidedly Kantian. Opposition to Saussure seems to rely on a prejudice in favor of formal languages as somehow superior to natural language, a prejudice that seems to inform much of the discussion in the years before and during Wittgenstein's writings. * * * * Has it been established that the elementary facts are enumerable? Martin On 20/07/2010 16:38, walto wrote: > I take it that his view in the TLP was that, in the end, there was no > real difference between idealism and realism, that neither philosophy > can even really be stated without spewing nonsense. > > Again, he discusses that matter in "Some Remarks on Logical Form." I > think he there holds "This is red" to be tantamount to "This item > appears on line 4 column 6." That is, if something takes up that > particular place, nothing else can. > > W __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4) Recent Activity: Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. ________________________________ Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center. ________________________________ Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . __,_._,___