Sorry, that wasn't expressed well, and I didn't take the time to look up any references. In trying to come up with a better formulation, I stumbled across an interesting sounding paper by Allan F Randall (http://www.elea.org/Wittgenstein/) the abstract for which is: "Wittgenstein's philosophies, from both the Tractatus and the Philosophical Investigations, are explained and developed. Wittgenstein uses a primitive version of recursion theory to develop his attempt at a purely logical metaphysics in the Tractatus. However, due to his implicit materialist assumptions, he could not make the system completely logical, and built in a mystical division of possible worlds into the true and the false. This incoherence eventually lead him to reject logic as a method for doing metaphysics, and indeed to reject metaphysics entirely. I argue that his move from the Tractatus to the Investigations was valid, but only given his materialist assumptions. If he had been willing to drop this unnecessary baggage, recursion would have played a very different role in his system, since he would then have had no need to separate static objects from processes, which he saw as purely mental. F.H. Bradley developed such a nonmaterialist metaphysics in the nineteenth century, but was crippled by a mentalism that Wittgenstein was free of. The anti-mentalism and anti-materialism that Wittgenstein considered as given were not so obvious to his predecessor, Russell, who revolted against Bradley's idealism in much the same way Wittgenstein ended up revolting against Russell's logical atomism. In my view, none of these positions was the right approach, which would require nonmentalism and nonmaterialism. But for some reason, these things (which seem to go together quite naturally to me) have been widely considered to be incompatible. Bradley was appropriately a non-materialist, but suffered from mentalism. Russell and the early Wittgenstein were appropriately nonmentalists, but suffered from materialism. The later Wittgenstein was, I would argue, still an ardent materialist and anti-mentalist, in spite of the fact that he had long since realized the contradictions to which materialism leads; he just had not recognized that it was his materialist assumptions that had lead him there, since these assumptions were so firmly engrained in his thinking as to be invisible. Hence, he could publicly claim to have rejected metaphysics, while continuing to argue philosophically from a strongly materialist, and hence deeply metaphysical, position." The comments on W's implicit materialism are consistent with my earlier questions about what stance is being taken wrt the idealism/realism spectrum, and also with my doubts about the genuineness of W's repudiation of any such distinction. On a quick scan, the nearest this paper comes to helping me to express myself is the assertion that the TLP "ultimately leaves truth outside of logic". As I remember it, W claims that logic does not tell us anything about the world. This seems suspect, on the grounds that developments in science have sometimes suggested that an alternative logic should be adopted. If the development of science can influence the choice of logic (which is perhaps another way of saying that it requires radical linguistic innovation) then it would seem that there must be a connection between logic and empirical considerations. On 08/08/10 13:33, walto wrote: > One thing I do want to ask you, though, is why you say that W is thought > to deny that there are logical truths. His position in the Tractatus > seems rather to be that every necessary truth must be a tautology (and > he struggles with those statements like, "If this is green it is not > red." which seem not to be empirical, but which can't easily be analyzed > into a "p v -p" form. > > Walto