[wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10 update

From: "Vincent Burel \(VB-Audio\)" <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 08:38:20 +0100

Hello Gary,

Just to repeat my question with more precisions:

In the INF file, all the following strings are unique and different for all
our virtual audio drivers

DeviceName

HardwareId

ServiceName

DriverFile

INPUTGUID

OUTPUTGUID

NAMELine1

INPUTNAME

OUTPUTNAME

In Source files, all GUID are also unique and different for all our virtual
audio drivers

// interface GUID

                //Friendly name line-in

                //Friendly name line-out

So, what REFERENCE STRING are you talking about ?

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Vincent Burel
(VB-Audio)
Envoyé : vendredi 17 janvier 2020 21:04
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

Hello,

Thanks to come back to this, but

1-      Before WIN10 there was no automatic update with audio driver
re-installation.

2-      All our hardware ID are unique for each driver of course so what
reference string are you talking about exactly ? where it is supposed to be
in the source code ? in the inf file ? what are you talking about ?

Also the problem does not affect our audio driver only, the pin and icon
name confusing can happen with other audio drivers as well

You may check this problem with more attention, because I dont think its
exclusively driver related

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Gary Daniels
(Redacted sender "Gary.Daniels" for DMARC)
Envoyé : vendredi 17 janvier 2020 19:31
À : Matthew van Eerde; wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

Hi Vincent,

Please refer back to the instructions given to you in the 1/31/19 thread.

At the time your complaint was that the audio endpoint settings were being
mixed up after uninstall and reinstall. I broke this complaint into two
pieces, settings not being removed and settings getting mixed up.

I explained at the time that the change to retain the settings upon
uninstall was intended to make the system behave more consistently by making
uninstall and reinstall behave the same as upgrade, and also to fix customer
issues with lost settings during upgrade. After that discussion, I was able
to find a way to solve the issue with lost user settings on upgrade while
also retaining the manual uninstallation behavior which you and others had
come to expect, so the current release of windows removes user settings when
the audio driver is uninstalled.

As I said at the time: "I understand that you are talking about uninstall
and reinstall, however please understand that your customers are going to
see the same behavior you're seeing right now for uninstall and reinstall
whenever they do an OS upgrade, and would have seen this behavior on all
prior OS versions on OS upgrade."

So, now your complaint is that you're seeing the settings mix up on OS
upgrades and it happens on all of the versions of Windows you've checked,
exactly as I said last year. The issue you are seeing with upgrades is by
design, it is how the OS upgrade system works, how it has always worked, and
will not be changing. Now that I've changed driver uninstall to remove the
settings, as requested, you're going to have a much more difficult time
validating your driver fix to handle OS upgrades because OS upgrades and
driver uninstall and reinstall once again behave differently.

I directed you to solving the settings mix up by using unique reference
strings. I provided lots of explanation on how upgrades work why this is
necessary, summarized here:

"> The fix should be obvious now. For root enumerated software

devices, because it lacks a hardware ID, the OS has a limitation
that reference strings must be unique to ensure that settings aren't
mixed up on OS upgrades and driver updates."

Nothing has changed or will change with this. The OS upgrade process breaks
the connection between the PNP interfaces and the audio settings. The audio
system then has to reconnect the audio settings to the PNP interfaces after
the upgrade completes, bringing the user settings from an old OS to a newly
installed OS with a newly installed driver. It does this by matching
hardware id and reference string. Your interfaces do not have unique
hardware id's or unique reference strings, so the settings cannot be
accurately matched.

Thanks,

Gary Daniels

Senior SDE, Windows Audio

Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>

  _____

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Matthew van Eerde <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 8:24 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

Happy new year to you as well :-)

  _____

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 2:48:45 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

If you were still not aware about WIN10 update problem, there is a clear
article there:

<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbe
s.com%2Fsites%2Fgordonkelly%2F2020%2F01%2F02%2Fmicrosoft-windows-10-warning-
file-explorer-crash-search-upgrade-windows-10%2F&data=02%7C01%7CGary.Daniels
%40microsoft.com%7C5987263ed2fb41f5bb1608d792c50c62%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d
7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637139247338591970&sdata=5cWThZCtNAjg5lzBI%2FHaCLdhOOGr
6qzoVjSjomvnQ68%3D&reserved=0>
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/01/02/microsoft-windows-10-war
ning-file-explorer-crash-search-upgrade-windows-10/

apparently the issue is not limited to audio driver, but all core components
!

Happy new year by the way!

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Vincent Burel
(VB-Audio)
Envoyé : vendredi 3 janvier 2020 18:31
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

Regarding this problem: WIN10 update and bad audio driver re-installation.

No progress has been made since years, maybe since VISTA,

thats why most of music and video production stayed on MAC.

So you are right! Fixing this audio device management bug is not guarantee!

And any log wont change anything if you do not want to correct this issue

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:wdma
<mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> udiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De
la part de Matthew van Eerde (Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : vendredi 3 janvier 2020 17:18
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

If youre unwilling to provide logs it is unlikely any progress will be
made.

(Even if you provide logs, there is no guarantee.)

From: Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <mailto:vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:10 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

No, sorry, this is something you should be aware about.

This is a very common issue (search for audio problem after win10 update on
google )

You can also reproduce it by yourself

Install voicemeeter Banana and VB-CABLE REBOOT and use it for test

Then reconnect to internet to get the WIN10 update

And you will see the mess in audio driver after reboot.

Also Gary Daniels already told you about this problem in a message there in
February 2019

Re: Is there a way to force clearing device property cache on device
uninstallation?

I thought Microsoft would correct this and consequences as well!

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Matthew van Eerde
(Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : jeudi 2 janvier 2020 19:52
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

Can you file a problem report in Feedback Hub, from a system in the problem
state, and share a link?

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 12:42:08 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [wdmaudiodev] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10
update

For Matthew, and other experts at Microsoft

We have another simple explanation of the WIN10 update problem and audio
driver:

https://forum.vb-audio.com/viewtopic.php?f=7
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.vb-
audio.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D7%26t%3D688&data=02%7C01%7CGary.Daniels%40mi
crosoft.com%7C5987263ed2fb41f5bb1608d792c50c62%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd01
1db47%7C1%7C0%7C637139247338601963&sdata=pcdEM6VI5qlG6sTCE%2BawzCqrhyiqAwmEY
gQL%2BeN4XoA%3D&reserved=0> &t=688

On the topic above, the second message includes an image showing how our
audio devices are present in Windows Sound Dialog box after a good
installation.

After a WIN10 update, icon and pin name (bold name of the device) can be
exchanged between drivers.

For example we can have the VB-CABLE A with the icon and the pin name of the
Voicemeeter AUX driver

Then nothing works correct, audio device selection is corrupted in all
applications of course, and audio is not working correct.

And this is done from a day to another with automatic WIN10 update

The only solution we have is to ask users to de-install all VB-CABLEs and
Voicemeeter and re-install them.

(the fact is that it does not happen only to our drivers and can disturb the
audio stack for ever if the corrupted audio driver is not re-installed) .

Could you fix this problem ? present on WIN10 since the beginning

And possibly on WIN7, or even VISTA too but there is less automatic update
with audio driver re-installation

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Vincent Burel
(VB-Audio)
Envoyé : vendredi 22 novembre 2019 08:25
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Typical audio problem with WIN10 update

Matthew, and others at Microsoft

As typical case, we have a nice thread on our forum that could help you to
see the problem we are talking about:

https://forum.vb-audio.com/viewtopic.php?f=6
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.vb-
audio.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D6%26t%3D886&data=02%7C01%7CGary.Daniels%40mi
crosoft.com%7C5987263ed2fb41f5bb1608d792c50c62%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd01
1db47%7C1%7C0%7C637139247338601963&sdata=81ZhQij1k7J0IMKwdoMAfvkU2urDVz1Uiz0
72MEjRrs%3D&reserved=0> &t=886

where it is explained that audio can suddenly stop working after a Win10
update.

-          Audio Driver can be badly reinstalled requiring to re-install
them again

-          Windows Audio settings can be changed (default audio device,
device format, volume mixer).

-          Privacy Settings regarding Microphone can also be changed (this
was the case for this problem report)

That you have to understand is that from a day to another, a working audio
configuration is turned into a hell for users.

And for us, because we get messages/report every day on this problem

Regards

Vincent Burel

www.voicemeeter.com
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.voicem
eeter.com&data=02%7C01%7CGary.Daniels%40microsoft.com%7C5987263ed2fb41f5bb16
08d792c50c62%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637139247338611958
&sdata=xD%2FS%2BiCVGE3daga2reh0aRUvey7pboF2JYm4gN6Sqhk%3D&reserved=0>

De :  <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Matthew van Eerde
(Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : vendredi 20 septembre 2019 19:42
À :  <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

Sorry, Im not seeing it.

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:38:31 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

This is a single problem, but several symptoms

that should place you on the track to fix it

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Matthew van Eerde
(Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : vendredi 20 septembre 2019 17:32
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

One problem at a time please.

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:57:30 PM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

Matthew, no kidding!

Maybe you dont remember, but you already read or reply to several messages
on the subject:

10 AUG 2015: WIN10 update changes drivers name and icon

23 JUL 2019: SYSVAD & Certification Process Failures...

(several message explaining how all different driver installation procedures
are not working correct with SYSVAD)

13 OCT 2018: Re: virtual audio driver removed via devcon, but it's only
hidden

19 JAN 2019: Re: Is there a way to force clearing device property cache on
device uninstallation?

After installation the driver presents pin name of another driver (already
installed, or previously de-installed).

You will find in these messages some points from Gary Daniels explaining
that there is different potential bugs with AudioEndpointBuilder and PNP
Migration process and that also the driver must be fixed to work for OS
upgrades so you cant ignore the problem.

14 MAR 2019: Re: DTM audio glitch test failing

It seems the driver installation (update) procedure is bugged and the
driver behavior can be impacted (if bad installed mess in audio points -
).

As you see, If you really wanted to help, it would be fixed since years.

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Matthew van Eerde
(Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : jeudi 19 septembre 2019 18:42
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

*       I definitely think that the problem is mainly located in the driver
installation process and the Audio Endpoint Point initial installation /
configuration

Tell me more. What leads you to that conclusion?

*       Just make a google search

I want to help YOU. What problems are YOU running into?

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 9:37:49 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

I definitely think that the problem is mainly located in the driver
installation process and the Audio End Point initial installation /
configuration.

If you are interested in this, just make a google search on WIN10 update
and audio issues for example you will find something every day!

Regards

Vincent Burel

De : wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] De la part de Matthew van Eerde
(Redacted sender "Matthew.van.Eerde" for DMARC)
Envoyé : jeudi 19 septembre 2019 17:30
À : wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Objet : [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

*       typically stuttering / discontinued audio / cut in the sound on a
capture or render stream

This has nothing to do with Daves question, but Im interested anyway.

Out of respect for Dave, please start a new email thread with a new subject.

Follow the instructions here to grab logs of the problem in action:

https://matthewvaneerde.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/report-problems-with-logs-a
nd-suggest-features-with-the-feedback-hub/
<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatthewva
neerde.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F09%2F26%2Freport-problems-with-logs-and-sugges
t-features-with-the-feedback-hub%2F&data=02%7C01%7CGary.Daniels%40microsoft.
com%7C5987263ed2fb41f5bb1608d792c50c62%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C
1%7C0%7C637139247338611958&sdata=Z9BQ%2FY22MSWTRpbccgMHh%2Fc4WzFcQm9J7vuyKbn
txSE%3D&reserved=0>

Grab a link to the problem report and include it in the email.

Ill take a look at the logs and see if I can figure out what is causing the
stuttering / discontinued audio / cut in the sound.

From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Vincent Burel (VB-Audio) <vincent.burel@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 7:00:01 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: The link between Audio Properties and the Driver
Endpoint.

Yes, precise, but complicated, and does not help us to sale and support
audio app at the end.

Today with WIN10 ( 2019):

for each update or for each new USB audio device plugged, or for each new
audio driver installation,

there is a risk for the user to get a problem somewhere in the audio stack
typically stuttering / discontinued audio / cut in the sound on a capture or
render stream.

Example: I newly plug a USB microphone on a WIN10 computer, and then try to
use it with WASAPI or MME no way to get  stable stream.

then I newly plug it into another WIN10 computer, use in the same way
without any problem

Other example: I newly plug a USB device (e.g. SoundBlaster), it works ok
during the day the day after: no way to make it work stable after computer
startup then I reboot and it work again correct

Audio users are simply becoming crazy with this kind of behavior.

Then I ask for questions:  Is there a way to know if the audio stack is
running correct ?  Is there a way to check that audio driver installation is
correct ? Could we have such kind diagnostic tool ?

Regards

Vincent Burel

Follow-Ups:
- [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10 update
  - From: Gary Daniels

References:
- [wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10 update
  - From: Vincent Burel (VB-Audio)

[wdmaudiodev] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Typical audio problem with WIN10 update

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