Thanks for the address, I didn't get a chance to look at the site. Thanks again for sharing. --Dar wishing a backTpack call me at 406-259-1124 Every Saint has a past, Every sinner has a future , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 8:39 PM Subject: (VICT) Re: come back > Hi, Dar, > > The people on this list, as well as many others who are blind or have low > vision, have devised, shared, and adapted non-visual ways to train dogs > and > other animals using clicker training. > > Could you read Sandy's Basic Clicker Lessons from the attachment I sent to > the list with my previous post? That document describes many non-visual > techniques for working with our dogs using clicker training. I hope it > gave > you the idea about how it can be done. > > There is no reason why a totally blind person cannot use positive > reinforcement and a yes answer signal. Just as we can handle our guide > dogs > using traditional methods, we can also handle them using positive methods. > After all, our guides usually work right next to our sides, where it is > easy > to monitor what they are doing through our tactile and auditory senses. > Now, if we were going to try handling a sheep herding dog or a field > hunting > dog, that might be more of a challenge for a blind handler. But using > clicker training with our guides is really no problem. > > The address to send messages to this list is: > > VI-Clicker-Trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > I hope that is what you were asking for. > > Ann > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dmgina" <dmgina@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 5:48 PM > Subject: (VICT) Re: come back > > >> >> I was told a total can't teach clicker training. >> I don't see why not? >> thanks, >> I also need a message sent to me whit the address to write to this list >> on >> a >> separate line. >> I wish to make a folder for the list. >> When I get a chance to go to the pet store I want to get a clicker that >> will >> go on my wrist so that I can use my hands. >> Hope this makes since. >> >> I would have the clicker down so that I could click it, >> But that is all. >> >> >> --Dar >> wishing a >> backTpack >> call me at >> 406-259-1124 >> Every Saint has a past, >> Every sinner has a future , >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 2:36 PM >> Subject: (VICT) Re: come back >> >> >>> Hi, Frank, (or do you prefer to be called DC?), >>> I had just about finished writing a nice long response to your message, >>> when >>> my computer froze up and refused to respond. So I had to turn it off >>> and >>> back on again, and of course, the entire post I had written was gone >>> somewhere irretrievable. So I'll give you a shorter version this time, >>> and >>> if you have questions about any of the particulars, please ask. >>> >>> First of all, I am answering your questions on the list rather than >>> privately, because I want you to have the benefit of the support, >>> experience, and expertise of all the fine trainers and clicker-only >>> handlers >>> who are in the group. I hope they will add their suggestions to mine >>> and >>> clarify anything that is fuzzy. >>> >>> I can fully empathize with your struggle to save your partnership with >>> Jake, >>> as I went through a similar struggle with both my second and my third >>> guide >>> dogs. It was a devastating experience for me, even though I had trained >>> my >>> pet dogs and competed with them in obedience matches, and I had worked >>> successfully and happily with my first guide dog for nine years until >>> his >>> death. >>> >>> I don't know whether clicker training can save the partnership between >>> you >>> and Jake at this point. It is not easy to "unpoison" the poisoned cues >>> and >>> reestablish trust in a relationship. But you seem to really love Jake, >>> and >>> you seem to have a strong commitment to the partnership. So it is >>> definitely worth a try. >>> >>> Remember: I am not a professional guide dog trainer. Any suggestions I >>> may >>> give are just my thoughts, nothing more. You must choose the measures >>> and >>> techniques you use with your dog. Only you can decide whether to follow >>> the >>> directions of your school and depend on them to evaluate the >>> effectiveness >>> of those measures and to decide whether or when to end a partnership >>> with >>> a >>> dog, or whether to try something different and see if you get better >>> results. >>> >>> Anyway, I think there is a lot you can do to make things right with >>> Jake. >>> The first thing I would do is find one or more really tasty treats that >>> Jake >>> can eat and loves, like bits of hotdog, tiny pieces of cooked chicken, >>> tiny >>> bits of cheese, or tiny liver snacks. Then I would get a waist pack or >>> treat pouch and just get into the habit of wearing it all the time with >>> some >>> of those yummy treats in it. >>> >>> I will attach to this message Sandy Foushee's Basic Clicker Lessons. >>> Sandy >>> is one of our group members; she is a completely clicker, service dog >>> trainer who has also owner-trained her own guide dog. I hope she will >>> also >>> jump in and give you some suggestions. >>> >>> Since Jake is already familiar with the clicker, you may not have to go >>> back >>> to the very beginning lessons with him. But it never hurts to review, >>> especially when you want to begin a completely new way of relating with >>> your >>> partner. >>> >>> Secondly, I would definitely stop turning Jake loose to run in unfenced >>> areas. He is obviously not ready for the recall under that level of >>> stimulation. He can get lots of exercise with his guide work, with >>> off-duty >>> walks on leash, and with playing inside the house or on a long leash >>> outside. The off leash running is obviously too stressful for you and >>> too >>> dangerous for Jake. And you don't want Jake practicing undesirable >>> behaviors like running off and not responding to your recall cues. >>> >>> The other thing I would do is stop using corrections with your dog. I >>> would >>> use the leash and collar strictly to keep the dog within range and under >>> control, but not jerk on the leash or use it to give corrections. >>> >>> I think the "touch" cue is the key to both Jake's recall and the >>> distraction >>> issues. If Jake understands that the click means that he has done what >>> you >>> want and that it will always be followed by a yummy treat, and if he >>> knows >>> that mugging will not produce treats, but that performing certain >>> behaviors >>> will cause treats to rain down upon him, then you are ready to start >>> building a really strong and joyful targetting or touch response. >>> >>> As Sandy describes in her lessons, you will start with the "touch" >>> response >>> at very close range and in a quiet, familiar location. You will >>> gradually >>> build the response so that you can get it at greater distances, with >>> higher >>> levels of distraction, and with your hand at different heights and in >>> different positions. You will practice this behavior, always in a fun >>> and >>> positive way, many times a day and in many locations within your >>> home--during play, when you want him to come to you so that you can feed >>> him >>> or take him out for a walk, or for any other pleasant reason. >>> >>> I would not use any sort of recall cue when I want to catch the dog for >>> reasons he considers unpleasant, like a bath, ear cleaning, or nail >>> clipping. In those cases, I would simply go to where the dog is and >>> clip >>> on >>> the leash to lead him where I want him to go. I would click and treat >>> for >>> his letting me approach and snap on the leash, and of course, during any >>> unpleasant process, for patience and cooperation on his part. But when >>> you >>> give him that "Touch!" cue and he responds to it, you want only >>> wonderful >>> memorable things to happen to him, so that he will be eager to come to >>> you >>> from whatever he is doing and wherever he is. >>> >>> And, of course, you never, never want to correct or punish your dog when >>> he >>> responds to the cue and comes to you, no matter how angry and frustrated >>> you >>> are with him, and no matter what he did wrong before coming to you. You >>> always want coming to you to be as exciting as opening Christmas >>> presents! >>> You want to be the most wonderful and interesting thing in your dog's >>> world. >>> When he responds to the "touch" cue, you will shower him with happy >>> talk, >>> hugs and pats, and delicious treats! >>> >>> Once he is eagerly and enthusiastically flying to you from within your >>> apartment when he hears you say, "Jake, touch!", then you can take the >>> show >>> on the road. Ask him to touch your hand with his nose when you are at >>> work, >>> or on the bus, or standing at the bus stop, or anywhere else you go. >>> >>> Once the "touch" response is really strong and consistent, then you can >>> start using it in slightly more distracting environments. You might >>> start >>> by sitting somewhere, like on a bench at the mall, where there are lots >>> of >>> people passing by, but not too close. You can practice having Jake >>> touch >>> your hand and get clicked and treated when no one is passing. After >>> several >>> repetitions, someone might pass within his "distraction zone", and >>> perhaps >>> he will turn his head to watch them. Before he can get really >>> distracted, >>> you will say "touch" and put your hand where Jake can very easily touch >>> it, >>> C/T! Continue practicing this, until Jake automatically looks toward >>> you, >>> expecting the click and treat, whenever another person comes within >>> range. >>> >>> It may take many months to gradually build up a reliable and consistent >>> recall at liberty and at distance. I would definitely keep Jake on >>> leash, >>> gradually increasing the length of the line, and practice recalls at >>> gradually greater distances and with gradually greater levels of >>> distraction. If he fails to respond at any time, you know that you have >>> increased the criteria too fast or that the environment has rewarded him >>> more highly for not coming than you have rewarded him for coming. Then >>> you >>> just have to drop back a few steps to a place where he is consistently >>> responding correctly, and once again gradually build the behavior. >>> >>> As he becomes reliable and consistent with certain responses and >>> situations, >>> you can gradually reduce the value of the treats and the frequency of >>> C/T. >>> For example, when he reliably comes to you within the house, you can >>> switch >>> to kibble instead of the higher level treats and keep the "good stuff" >>> for >>> outside the house. And you can begin to string together several >>> behaviors >>> and C/T after the last behavior in the chain. >>> >>> You can also use the click and treat to reward his excellent guide >>> behaviors, so that he will begin to think of the work itself as fun and >>> rewarding. But I think I should save that discussion for another time. >>> I >>> think you will have plenty to work on for now. >>> >>> Do let us know how it is going and ask any questions you may have. >>> >>> Best of luck, >>> Lots of Joy, >>> Much success! >>> >>> Ann >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "The count" <darkcount@xxxxxxxxxxx> >>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:12 PM >>> Subject: (VICT) come back >>> >>> >>>> Hi all. >>>> I just subscribed to the list. >>>> Name is Frank, and am working my first dog Jake, a black lab from GDA. >>>> >>>> I am turning to clicker training in the hopes of saving a deteriorating >>>> team if at all possible. >>>> >>>> Jake is already aclamated to the clicker, so that is not necessarily >>>> the >>>> issue. >>>> My real concernt on top of all others is that he will not come when >>>> called if he has decided to run. >>>> So I am turning to the list and the experts in hopes that you will be >>>> able to help me map out a set of steps to start him in the right way. >>>> >>>> I was able to work with him on come from a sit sstay, or a down stay >>>> with no problem. >>>> Though it took a few minutes of follow and heal with the clicker in my >>>> hand and bits of kibble. >>>> >>>> My real objective here is to get Jake to stop if he is getting near the >>>> no no mark in a yard, or park, and to return to me. >>>> The only way I know of doing this currently is to set targets as near >>>> as >>>> possible to the spot, and correct violently, something which puts as >>>> much stress and disappointment in the results on both of us. >>>> >>>> I live in an apartment, and currently have no acquaintances with a back >>>> yard, so have to run Jake in a semi-enclosed area which requires that >>>> Jake learn the no zones. >>>> >>>> I maybe asking too much, but I have put too much work over the last two >>>> years into our team to loose a darn good worker like Jake. >>>> He suffers from people and doggy distractions, yet his work with out >>>> the >>>> distractions is examplery. >>>> I was told that he would require a yard and a place to run if I was to >>>> stay with him. >>>> >>>> As I have seen chiguaguas mantain enough of an attention span to >>>> observe >>>> such boundaries, I can't see why I should not expect a full fledge >>>> black >>>> lab who has done two years of services as a guide dog not to. >>>> >>>> I am sure there some of you with quite extensive training on clicker >>>> work, and if you are willing to work with me, you got an eager student. >>>> >>>> My thanks in advanced. >>>> >>>> D C >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis -- >>> -- Type: application/msword >>> -- File: Sandy's Clicker Lessons.doc >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/731 - Release Date: >>> 3/23/2007 >>> 3:27 PM >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/731 - Release Date: 3/23/2007 > 3:27 PM >