(VICT) Re: come back
- From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 00:10:54 -0400
Hi, Sheila,
Welcome to the group! I'm so happy that you finally arrived! I hope you
will share with us what GDB is doing with clicker training as well as how
you and Gretch are coming along as a relatively new team.
Welcome!
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheila Styron" <sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:54 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
> It's Sheila and Gretch. At long happily last, we're here!
>
> Sheila Styron, President
> Guide Dog Users, Inc.
> 816-363-3172
> sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:39 PM
> To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
>
>
> Hi, Dar,
>
> The people on this list, as well as many others who are blind or have
> low
> vision, have devised, shared, and adapted non-visual ways to train dogs
> and
> other animals using clicker training.
>
> Could you read Sandy's Basic Clicker Lessons from the attachment I sent
> to
> the list with my previous post? That document describes many non-visual
>
> techniques for working with our dogs using clicker training. I hope it
> gave
> you the idea about how it can be done.
>
> There is no reason why a totally blind person cannot use positive
> reinforcement and a yes answer signal. Just as we can handle our guide
> dogs
> using traditional methods, we can also handle them using positive
> methods.
> After all, our guides usually work right next to our sides, where it is
> easy
> to monitor what they are doing through our tactile and auditory senses.
> Now, if we were going to try handling a sheep herding dog or a field
> hunting
> dog, that might be more of a challenge for a blind handler. But using
> clicker training with our guides is really no problem.
>
> The address to send messages to this list is:
>
> VI-Clicker-Trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> I hope that is what you were asking for.
>
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dmgina" <dmgina@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 5:48 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
>
>
>>
>> I was told a total can't teach clicker training.
>> I don't see why not?
>> thanks,
>> I also need a message sent to me whit the address to write to this
>> list on
>> a
>> separate line.
>> I wish to make a folder for the list.
>> When I get a chance to go to the pet store I want to get a clicker
> that
>> will
>> go on my wrist so that I can use my hands.
>> Hope this makes since.
>>
>> I would have the clicker down so that I could click it,
>> But that is all.
>>
>>
>> --Dar
>> wishing a
>> backTpack
>> call me at
>> 406-259-1124
>> Every Saint has a past,
>> Every sinner has a future ,
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 2:36 PM
>> Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
>>
>>
>>> Hi, Frank, (or do you prefer to be called DC?),
>>> I had just about finished writing a nice long response to your
>>> message, when my computer froze up and refused to respond. So I had
>>> to turn it off and back on again, and of course, the entire post I
>>> had written was gone somewhere irretrievable. So I'll give you a
>>> shorter version this time, and
>>> if you have questions about any of the particulars, please ask.
>>>
>>> First of all, I am answering your questions on the list rather than
>>> privately, because I want you to have the benefit of the support,
>>> experience, and expertise of all the fine trainers and clicker-only
>>> handlers who are in the group. I hope they will add their
>>> suggestions to mine and clarify anything that is fuzzy.
>>>
>>> I can fully empathize with your struggle to save your partnership
>>> with Jake, as I went through a similar struggle with both my second
>>> and my third guide
>>> dogs. It was a devastating experience for me, even though I had
> trained
>>> my
>>> pet dogs and competed with them in obedience matches, and I had
> worked
>>> successfully and happily with my first guide dog for nine years until
> his
>>> death.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether clicker training can save the partnership
>>> between
>>> you
>>> and Jake at this point. It is not easy to "unpoison" the poisoned
> cues
>>> and
>>> reestablish trust in a relationship. But you seem to really love
> Jake,
>>> and
>>> you seem to have a strong commitment to the partnership. So it is
>>> definitely worth a try.
>>>
>>> Remember: I am not a professional guide dog trainer. Any
>>> suggestions I may give are just my thoughts, nothing more. You must
>>> choose the measures and
>>> techniques you use with your dog. Only you can decide whether to
> follow
>>> the
>>> directions of your school and depend on them to evaluate the
>>> effectiveness
>>> of those measures and to decide whether or when to end a partnership
> with
>>> a
>>> dog, or whether to try something different and see if you get better
>>> results.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think there is a lot you can do to make things right with
>>> Jake. The first thing I would do is find one or more really tasty
>>> treats that Jake can eat and loves, like bits of hotdog, tiny pieces
>>> of cooked chicken, tiny
>>> bits of cheese, or tiny liver snacks. Then I would get a waist pack
> or
>>> treat pouch and just get into the habit of wearing it all the time
> with
>>> some
>>> of those yummy treats in it.
>>>
>>> I will attach to this message Sandy Foushee's Basic Clicker Lessons.
>>> Sandy is one of our group members; she is a completely clicker,
>>> service dog trainer who has also owner-trained her own guide dog. I
>>> hope she will also
>>> jump in and give you some suggestions.
>>>
>>> Since Jake is already familiar with the clicker, you may not have to
>>> go back to the very beginning lessons with him. But it never hurts
>>> to review, especially when you want to begin a completely new way of
>>> relating with your
>>> partner.
>>>
>>> Secondly, I would definitely stop turning Jake loose to run in
>>> unfenced areas. He is obviously not ready for the recall under that
>>> level of stimulation. He can get lots of exercise with his guide
>>> work, with off-duty walks on leash, and with playing inside the house
>
>>> or on a long leash outside. The off leash running is obviously too
>>> stressful for you and too
>>> dangerous for Jake. And you don't want Jake practicing undesirable
>>> behaviors like running off and not responding to your recall cues.
>>>
>>> The other thing I would do is stop using corrections with your dog.
>>> I would use the leash and collar strictly to keep the dog within
>>> range and under control, but not jerk on the leash or use it to give
>>> corrections.
>>>
>>> I think the "touch" cue is the key to both Jake's recall and the
>>> distraction issues. If Jake understands that the click means that he
>
>>> has done what you
>>> want and that it will always be followed by a yummy treat, and if he
>>> knows
>>> that mugging will not produce treats, but that performing certain
>>> behaviors
>>> will cause treats to rain down upon him, then you are ready to start
>>> building a really strong and joyful targetting or touch response.
>>>
>>> As Sandy describes in her lessons, you will start with the "touch"
>>> response at very close range and in a quiet, familiar location. You
>>> will gradually
>>> build the response so that you can get it at greater distances, with
>>> higher
>>> levels of distraction, and with your hand at different heights and in
>>> different positions. You will practice this behavior, always in a
> fun
>>> and
>>> positive way, many times a day and in many locations within your
>>> home--during play, when you want him to come to you so that you can
> feed
>>> him
>>> or take him out for a walk, or for any other pleasant reason.
>>>
>>> I would not use any sort of recall cue when I want to catch the dog
>>> for reasons he considers unpleasant, like a bath, ear cleaning, or
>>> nail clipping. In those cases, I would simply go to where the dog is
>
>>> and clip on the leash to lead him where I want him to go. I would
>>> click and treat for
>>> his letting me approach and snap on the leash, and of course, during
> any
>>> unpleasant process, for patience and cooperation on his part. But
> when
>>> you
>>> give him that "Touch!" cue and he responds to it, you want only
> wonderful
>>> memorable things to happen to him, so that he will be eager to come
> to
>>> you
>>> from whatever he is doing and wherever he is.
>>>
>>> And, of course, you never, never want to correct or punish your dog
>>> when he responds to the cue and comes to you, no matter how angry and
>
>>> frustrated you
>>> are with him, and no matter what he did wrong before coming to you.
> You
>>> always want coming to you to be as exciting as opening Christmas
>>> presents!
>>> You want to be the most wonderful and interesting thing in your dog's
>>> world.
>>> When he responds to the "touch" cue, you will shower him with happy
> talk,
>>> hugs and pats, and delicious treats!
>>>
>>> Once he is eagerly and enthusiastically flying to you from within
>>> your apartment when he hears you say, "Jake, touch!", then you can
>>> take the show on the road. Ask him to touch your hand with his nose
>>> when you are at work,
>>> or on the bus, or standing at the bus stop, or anywhere else you go.
>>>
>>> Once the "touch" response is really strong and consistent, then you
>>> can start using it in slightly more distracting environments. You
>>> might start by sitting somewhere, like on a bench at the mall, where
>>> there are lots of
>>> people passing by, but not too close. You can practice having Jake
> touch
>>> your hand and get clicked and treated when no one is passing. After
>>> several
>>> repetitions, someone might pass within his "distraction zone", and
>>> perhaps
>>> he will turn his head to watch them. Before he can get really
>>> distracted,
>>> you will say "touch" and put your hand where Jake can very easily
> touch
>>> it,
>>> C/T! Continue practicing this, until Jake automatically looks toward
>
>>> you,
>>> expecting the click and treat, whenever another person comes within
>>> range.
>>>
>>> It may take many months to gradually build up a reliable and
>>> consistent recall at liberty and at distance. I would definitely
>>> keep Jake on leash, gradually increasing the length of the line, and
>>> practice recalls at gradually greater distances and with gradually
>>> greater levels of distraction. If he fails to respond at any time,
>>> you know that you have increased the criteria too fast or that the
>>> environment has rewarded him more highly for not coming than you have
>
>>> rewarded him for coming. Then you
>>> just have to drop back a few steps to a place where he is
> consistently
>>> responding correctly, and once again gradually build the behavior.
>>>
>>> As he becomes reliable and consistent with certain responses and
>>> situations, you can gradually reduce the value of the treats and the
>>> frequency of C/T.
>>> For example, when he reliably comes to you within the house, you can
>>> switch
>>> to kibble instead of the higher level treats and keep the "good
> stuff"
>>> for
>>> outside the house. And you can begin to string together several
>>> behaviors
>>> and C/T after the last behavior in the chain.
>>>
>>> You can also use the click and treat to reward his excellent guide
>>> behaviors, so that he will begin to think of the work itself as fun
>>> and rewarding. But I think I should save that discussion for another
>
>>> time. I think you will have plenty to work on for now.
>>>
>>> Do let us know how it is going and ask any questions you may have.
>>>
>>> Best of luck,
>>> Lots of Joy,
>>> Much success!
>>>
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "The count" <darkcount@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:12 PM
>>> Subject: (VICT) come back
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi all.
>>>> I just subscribed to the list.
>>>> Name is Frank, and am working my first dog Jake, a black lab from
>>>> GDA.
>>>>
>>>> I am turning to clicker training in the hopes of saving a
>>>> deteriorating team if at all possible.
>>>>
>>>> Jake is already aclamated to the clicker, so that is not necessarily
>
>>>> the issue. My real concernt on top of all others is that he will not
>
>>>> come when called if he has decided to run.
>>>> So I am turning to the list and the experts in hopes that you will
> be
>>>> able to help me map out a set of steps to start him in the right
> way.
>>>>
>>>> I was able to work with him on come from a sit sstay, or a down stay
>
>>>> with no problem. Though it took a few minutes of follow and heal
>>>> with the clicker in my hand and bits of kibble.
>>>>
>>>> My real objective here is to get Jake to stop if he is getting near
>>>> the no no mark in a yard, or park, and to return to me. The only way
>
>>>> I know of doing this currently is to set targets as near as possible
>
>>>> to the spot, and correct violently, something which puts as much
>>>> stress and disappointment in the results on both of us.
>>>>
>>>> I live in an apartment, and currently have no acquaintances with a
>>>> back yard, so have to run Jake in a semi-enclosed area which
>>>> requires that Jake learn the no zones.
>>>>
>>>> I maybe asking too much, but I have put too much work over the last
>>>> two years into our team to loose a darn good worker like Jake. He
>>>> suffers from people and doggy distractions, yet his work with out
>>>> the distractions is examplery. I was told that he would require a
>>>> yard and a place to run if I was to stay with him.
>>>>
>>>> As I have seen chiguaguas mantain enough of an attention span to
>>>> observe such boundaries, I can't see why I should not expect a full
>>>> fledge black lab who has done two years of services as a guide dog
>>>> not to.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure there some of you with quite extensive training on clicker
>
>>>> work, and if you are willing to work with me, you got an eager
>>>> student.
>>>>
>>>> My thanks in advanced.
>>>>
>>>> D C
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
>>> -- Type: application/msword
>>> -- File: Sandy's Clicker Lessons.doc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/731 - Release Date:
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>>> 3:27 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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