(VICT) Re: come back
- From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 22:39:07 -0400
Hi, Dar,
The people on this list, as well as many others who are blind or have low
vision, have devised, shared, and adapted non-visual ways to train dogs and
other animals using clicker training.
Could you read Sandy's Basic Clicker Lessons from the attachment I sent to
the list with my previous post? That document describes many non-visual
techniques for working with our dogs using clicker training. I hope it gave
you the idea about how it can be done.
There is no reason why a totally blind person cannot use positive
reinforcement and a yes answer signal. Just as we can handle our guide dogs
using traditional methods, we can also handle them using positive methods.
After all, our guides usually work right next to our sides, where it is easy
to monitor what they are doing through our tactile and auditory senses.
Now, if we were going to try handling a sheep herding dog or a field hunting
dog, that might be more of a challenge for a blind handler. But using
clicker training with our guides is really no problem.
The address to send messages to this list is:
VI-Clicker-Trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
I hope that is what you were asking for.
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "dmgina" <dmgina@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
>
> I was told a total can't teach clicker training.
> I don't see why not?
> thanks,
> I also need a message sent to me whit the address to write to this list on
> a
> separate line.
> I wish to make a folder for the list.
> When I get a chance to go to the pet store I want to get a clicker that
> will
> go on my wrist so that I can use my hands.
> Hope this makes since.
>
> I would have the clicker down so that I could click it,
> But that is all.
>
>
> --Dar
> wishing a
> backTpack
> call me at
> 406-259-1124
> Every Saint has a past,
> Every sinner has a future ,
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 2:36 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
>
>
>> Hi, Frank, (or do you prefer to be called DC?),
>> I had just about finished writing a nice long response to your message,
>> when
>> my computer froze up and refused to respond. So I had to turn it off and
>> back on again, and of course, the entire post I had written was gone
>> somewhere irretrievable. So I'll give you a shorter version this time,
>> and
>> if you have questions about any of the particulars, please ask.
>>
>> First of all, I am answering your questions on the list rather than
>> privately, because I want you to have the benefit of the support,
>> experience, and expertise of all the fine trainers and clicker-only
>> handlers
>> who are in the group. I hope they will add their suggestions to mine and
>> clarify anything that is fuzzy.
>>
>> I can fully empathize with your struggle to save your partnership with
>> Jake,
>> as I went through a similar struggle with both my second and my third
>> guide
>> dogs. It was a devastating experience for me, even though I had trained
>> my
>> pet dogs and competed with them in obedience matches, and I had worked
>> successfully and happily with my first guide dog for nine years until his
>> death.
>>
>> I don't know whether clicker training can save the partnership between
>> you
>> and Jake at this point. It is not easy to "unpoison" the poisoned cues
>> and
>> reestablish trust in a relationship. But you seem to really love Jake,
>> and
>> you seem to have a strong commitment to the partnership. So it is
>> definitely worth a try.
>>
>> Remember: I am not a professional guide dog trainer. Any suggestions I
>> may
>> give are just my thoughts, nothing more. You must choose the measures
>> and
>> techniques you use with your dog. Only you can decide whether to follow
>> the
>> directions of your school and depend on them to evaluate the
>> effectiveness
>> of those measures and to decide whether or when to end a partnership with
>> a
>> dog, or whether to try something different and see if you get better
>> results.
>>
>> Anyway, I think there is a lot you can do to make things right with Jake.
>> The first thing I would do is find one or more really tasty treats that
>> Jake
>> can eat and loves, like bits of hotdog, tiny pieces of cooked chicken,
>> tiny
>> bits of cheese, or tiny liver snacks. Then I would get a waist pack or
>> treat pouch and just get into the habit of wearing it all the time with
>> some
>> of those yummy treats in it.
>>
>> I will attach to this message Sandy Foushee's Basic Clicker Lessons.
>> Sandy
>> is one of our group members; she is a completely clicker, service dog
>> trainer who has also owner-trained her own guide dog. I hope she will
>> also
>> jump in and give you some suggestions.
>>
>> Since Jake is already familiar with the clicker, you may not have to go
>> back
>> to the very beginning lessons with him. But it never hurts to review,
>> especially when you want to begin a completely new way of relating with
>> your
>> partner.
>>
>> Secondly, I would definitely stop turning Jake loose to run in unfenced
>> areas. He is obviously not ready for the recall under that level of
>> stimulation. He can get lots of exercise with his guide work, with
>> off-duty
>> walks on leash, and with playing inside the house or on a long leash
>> outside. The off leash running is obviously too stressful for you and
>> too
>> dangerous for Jake. And you don't want Jake practicing undesirable
>> behaviors like running off and not responding to your recall cues.
>>
>> The other thing I would do is stop using corrections with your dog. I
>> would
>> use the leash and collar strictly to keep the dog within range and under
>> control, but not jerk on the leash or use it to give corrections.
>>
>> I think the "touch" cue is the key to both Jake's recall and the
>> distraction
>> issues. If Jake understands that the click means that he has done what
>> you
>> want and that it will always be followed by a yummy treat, and if he
>> knows
>> that mugging will not produce treats, but that performing certain
>> behaviors
>> will cause treats to rain down upon him, then you are ready to start
>> building a really strong and joyful targetting or touch response.
>>
>> As Sandy describes in her lessons, you will start with the "touch"
>> response
>> at very close range and in a quiet, familiar location. You will
>> gradually
>> build the response so that you can get it at greater distances, with
>> higher
>> levels of distraction, and with your hand at different heights and in
>> different positions. You will practice this behavior, always in a fun
>> and
>> positive way, many times a day and in many locations within your
>> home--during play, when you want him to come to you so that you can feed
>> him
>> or take him out for a walk, or for any other pleasant reason.
>>
>> I would not use any sort of recall cue when I want to catch the dog for
>> reasons he considers unpleasant, like a bath, ear cleaning, or nail
>> clipping. In those cases, I would simply go to where the dog is and clip
>> on
>> the leash to lead him where I want him to go. I would click and treat
>> for
>> his letting me approach and snap on the leash, and of course, during any
>> unpleasant process, for patience and cooperation on his part. But when
>> you
>> give him that "Touch!" cue and he responds to it, you want only wonderful
>> memorable things to happen to him, so that he will be eager to come to
>> you
>> from whatever he is doing and wherever he is.
>>
>> And, of course, you never, never want to correct or punish your dog when
>> he
>> responds to the cue and comes to you, no matter how angry and frustrated
>> you
>> are with him, and no matter what he did wrong before coming to you. You
>> always want coming to you to be as exciting as opening Christmas
>> presents!
>> You want to be the most wonderful and interesting thing in your dog's
>> world.
>> When he responds to the "touch" cue, you will shower him with happy talk,
>> hugs and pats, and delicious treats!
>>
>> Once he is eagerly and enthusiastically flying to you from within your
>> apartment when he hears you say, "Jake, touch!", then you can take the
>> show
>> on the road. Ask him to touch your hand with his nose when you are at
>> work,
>> or on the bus, or standing at the bus stop, or anywhere else you go.
>>
>> Once the "touch" response is really strong and consistent, then you can
>> start using it in slightly more distracting environments. You might
>> start
>> by sitting somewhere, like on a bench at the mall, where there are lots
>> of
>> people passing by, but not too close. You can practice having Jake touch
>> your hand and get clicked and treated when no one is passing. After
>> several
>> repetitions, someone might pass within his "distraction zone", and
>> perhaps
>> he will turn his head to watch them. Before he can get really
>> distracted,
>> you will say "touch" and put your hand where Jake can very easily touch
>> it,
>> C/T! Continue practicing this, until Jake automatically looks toward
>> you,
>> expecting the click and treat, whenever another person comes within
>> range.
>>
>> It may take many months to gradually build up a reliable and consistent
>> recall at liberty and at distance. I would definitely keep Jake on
>> leash,
>> gradually increasing the length of the line, and practice recalls at
>> gradually greater distances and with gradually greater levels of
>> distraction. If he fails to respond at any time, you know that you have
>> increased the criteria too fast or that the environment has rewarded him
>> more highly for not coming than you have rewarded him for coming. Then
>> you
>> just have to drop back a few steps to a place where he is consistently
>> responding correctly, and once again gradually build the behavior.
>>
>> As he becomes reliable and consistent with certain responses and
>> situations,
>> you can gradually reduce the value of the treats and the frequency of
>> C/T.
>> For example, when he reliably comes to you within the house, you can
>> switch
>> to kibble instead of the higher level treats and keep the "good stuff"
>> for
>> outside the house. And you can begin to string together several
>> behaviors
>> and C/T after the last behavior in the chain.
>>
>> You can also use the click and treat to reward his excellent guide
>> behaviors, so that he will begin to think of the work itself as fun and
>> rewarding. But I think I should save that discussion for another time.
>> I
>> think you will have plenty to work on for now.
>>
>> Do let us know how it is going and ask any questions you may have.
>>
>> Best of luck,
>> Lots of Joy,
>> Much success!
>>
>> Ann
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "The count" <darkcount@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:12 PM
>> Subject: (VICT) come back
>>
>>
>>> Hi all.
>>> I just subscribed to the list.
>>> Name is Frank, and am working my first dog Jake, a black lab from GDA.
>>>
>>> I am turning to clicker training in the hopes of saving a deteriorating
>>> team if at all possible.
>>>
>>> Jake is already aclamated to the clicker, so that is not necessarily the
>>> issue.
>>> My real concernt on top of all others is that he will not come when
>>> called if he has decided to run.
>>> So I am turning to the list and the experts in hopes that you will be
>>> able to help me map out a set of steps to start him in the right way.
>>>
>>> I was able to work with him on come from a sit sstay, or a down stay
>>> with no problem.
>>> Though it took a few minutes of follow and heal with the clicker in my
>>> hand and bits of kibble.
>>>
>>> My real objective here is to get Jake to stop if he is getting near the
>>> no no mark in a yard, or park, and to return to me.
>>> The only way I know of doing this currently is to set targets as near as
>>> possible to the spot, and correct violently, something which puts as
>>> much stress and disappointment in the results on both of us.
>>>
>>> I live in an apartment, and currently have no acquaintances with a back
>>> yard, so have to run Jake in a semi-enclosed area which requires that
>>> Jake learn the no zones.
>>>
>>> I maybe asking too much, but I have put too much work over the last two
>>> years into our team to loose a darn good worker like Jake.
>>> He suffers from people and doggy distractions, yet his work with out the
>>> distractions is examplery.
>>> I was told that he would require a yard and a place to run if I was to
>>> stay with him.
>>>
>>> As I have seen chiguaguas mantain enough of an attention span to observe
>>> such boundaries, I can't see why I should not expect a full fledge black
>>> lab who has done two years of services as a guide dog not to.
>>>
>>> I am sure there some of you with quite extensive training on clicker
>>> work, and if you are willing to work with me, you got an eager student.
>>>
>>> My thanks in advanced.
>>>
>>> D C
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Ecartis --
>> -- Type: application/msword
>> -- File: Sandy's Clicker Lessons.doc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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