(VICT) Re: come back
- From: "dmgina" <dmgina@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:48:02 -0600
I was told a total can't teach clicker training.
I don't see why not?
thanks,
I also need a message sent to me whit the address to write to this list on a
separate line.
I wish to make a folder for the list.
When I get a chance to go to the pet store I want to get a clicker that will
go on my wrist so that I can use my hands.
Hope this makes since.
I would have the clicker down so that I could click it,
But that is all.
--Dar
wishing a
backTpack
call me at
406-259-1124
Every Saint has a past,
Every sinner has a future ,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: come back
> Hi, Frank, (or do you prefer to be called DC?),
> I had just about finished writing a nice long response to your message,
> when
> my computer froze up and refused to respond. So I had to turn it off and
> back on again, and of course, the entire post I had written was gone
> somewhere irretrievable. So I'll give you a shorter version this time,
> and
> if you have questions about any of the particulars, please ask.
>
> First of all, I am answering your questions on the list rather than
> privately, because I want you to have the benefit of the support,
> experience, and expertise of all the fine trainers and clicker-only
> handlers
> who are in the group. I hope they will add their suggestions to mine and
> clarify anything that is fuzzy.
>
> I can fully empathize with your struggle to save your partnership with
> Jake,
> as I went through a similar struggle with both my second and my third
> guide
> dogs. It was a devastating experience for me, even though I had trained
> my
> pet dogs and competed with them in obedience matches, and I had worked
> successfully and happily with my first guide dog for nine years until his
> death.
>
> I don't know whether clicker training can save the partnership between you
> and Jake at this point. It is not easy to "unpoison" the poisoned cues
> and
> reestablish trust in a relationship. But you seem to really love Jake,
> and
> you seem to have a strong commitment to the partnership. So it is
> definitely worth a try.
>
> Remember: I am not a professional guide dog trainer. Any suggestions I
> may
> give are just my thoughts, nothing more. You must choose the measures and
> techniques you use with your dog. Only you can decide whether to follow
> the
> directions of your school and depend on them to evaluate the effectiveness
> of those measures and to decide whether or when to end a partnership with
> a
> dog, or whether to try something different and see if you get better
> results.
>
> Anyway, I think there is a lot you can do to make things right with Jake.
> The first thing I would do is find one or more really tasty treats that
> Jake
> can eat and loves, like bits of hotdog, tiny pieces of cooked chicken,
> tiny
> bits of cheese, or tiny liver snacks. Then I would get a waist pack or
> treat pouch and just get into the habit of wearing it all the time with
> some
> of those yummy treats in it.
>
> I will attach to this message Sandy Foushee's Basic Clicker Lessons.
> Sandy
> is one of our group members; she is a completely clicker, service dog
> trainer who has also owner-trained her own guide dog. I hope she will
> also
> jump in and give you some suggestions.
>
> Since Jake is already familiar with the clicker, you may not have to go
> back
> to the very beginning lessons with him. But it never hurts to review,
> especially when you want to begin a completely new way of relating with
> your
> partner.
>
> Secondly, I would definitely stop turning Jake loose to run in unfenced
> areas. He is obviously not ready for the recall under that level of
> stimulation. He can get lots of exercise with his guide work, with
> off-duty
> walks on leash, and with playing inside the house or on a long leash
> outside. The off leash running is obviously too stressful for you and too
> dangerous for Jake. And you don't want Jake practicing undesirable
> behaviors like running off and not responding to your recall cues.
>
> The other thing I would do is stop using corrections with your dog. I
> would
> use the leash and collar strictly to keep the dog within range and under
> control, but not jerk on the leash or use it to give corrections.
>
> I think the "touch" cue is the key to both Jake's recall and the
> distraction
> issues. If Jake understands that the click means that he has done what
> you
> want and that it will always be followed by a yummy treat, and if he knows
> that mugging will not produce treats, but that performing certain
> behaviors
> will cause treats to rain down upon him, then you are ready to start
> building a really strong and joyful targetting or touch response.
>
> As Sandy describes in her lessons, you will start with the "touch"
> response
> at very close range and in a quiet, familiar location. You will gradually
> build the response so that you can get it at greater distances, with
> higher
> levels of distraction, and with your hand at different heights and in
> different positions. You will practice this behavior, always in a fun and
> positive way, many times a day and in many locations within your
> home--during play, when you want him to come to you so that you can feed
> him
> or take him out for a walk, or for any other pleasant reason.
>
> I would not use any sort of recall cue when I want to catch the dog for
> reasons he considers unpleasant, like a bath, ear cleaning, or nail
> clipping. In those cases, I would simply go to where the dog is and clip
> on
> the leash to lead him where I want him to go. I would click and treat for
> his letting me approach and snap on the leash, and of course, during any
> unpleasant process, for patience and cooperation on his part. But when
> you
> give him that "Touch!" cue and he responds to it, you want only wonderful
> memorable things to happen to him, so that he will be eager to come to you
> from whatever he is doing and wherever he is.
>
> And, of course, you never, never want to correct or punish your dog when
> he
> responds to the cue and comes to you, no matter how angry and frustrated
> you
> are with him, and no matter what he did wrong before coming to you. You
> always want coming to you to be as exciting as opening Christmas presents!
> You want to be the most wonderful and interesting thing in your dog's
> world.
> When he responds to the "touch" cue, you will shower him with happy talk,
> hugs and pats, and delicious treats!
>
> Once he is eagerly and enthusiastically flying to you from within your
> apartment when he hears you say, "Jake, touch!", then you can take the
> show
> on the road. Ask him to touch your hand with his nose when you are at
> work,
> or on the bus, or standing at the bus stop, or anywhere else you go.
>
> Once the "touch" response is really strong and consistent, then you can
> start using it in slightly more distracting environments. You might start
> by sitting somewhere, like on a bench at the mall, where there are lots of
> people passing by, but not too close. You can practice having Jake touch
> your hand and get clicked and treated when no one is passing. After
> several
> repetitions, someone might pass within his "distraction zone", and perhaps
> he will turn his head to watch them. Before he can get really distracted,
> you will say "touch" and put your hand where Jake can very easily touch
> it,
> C/T! Continue practicing this, until Jake automatically looks toward you,
> expecting the click and treat, whenever another person comes within range.
>
> It may take many months to gradually build up a reliable and consistent
> recall at liberty and at distance. I would definitely keep Jake on leash,
> gradually increasing the length of the line, and practice recalls at
> gradually greater distances and with gradually greater levels of
> distraction. If he fails to respond at any time, you know that you have
> increased the criteria too fast or that the environment has rewarded him
> more highly for not coming than you have rewarded him for coming. Then
> you
> just have to drop back a few steps to a place where he is consistently
> responding correctly, and once again gradually build the behavior.
>
> As he becomes reliable and consistent with certain responses and
> situations,
> you can gradually reduce the value of the treats and the frequency of C/T.
> For example, when he reliably comes to you within the house, you can
> switch
> to kibble instead of the higher level treats and keep the "good stuff" for
> outside the house. And you can begin to string together several behaviors
> and C/T after the last behavior in the chain.
>
> You can also use the click and treat to reward his excellent guide
> behaviors, so that he will begin to think of the work itself as fun and
> rewarding. But I think I should save that discussion for another time. I
> think you will have plenty to work on for now.
>
> Do let us know how it is going and ask any questions you may have.
>
> Best of luck,
> Lots of Joy,
> Much success!
>
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The count" <darkcount@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:12 PM
> Subject: (VICT) come back
>
>
>> Hi all.
>> I just subscribed to the list.
>> Name is Frank, and am working my first dog Jake, a black lab from GDA.
>>
>> I am turning to clicker training in the hopes of saving a deteriorating
>> team if at all possible.
>>
>> Jake is already aclamated to the clicker, so that is not necessarily the
>> issue.
>> My real concernt on top of all others is that he will not come when
>> called if he has decided to run.
>> So I am turning to the list and the experts in hopes that you will be
>> able to help me map out a set of steps to start him in the right way.
>>
>> I was able to work with him on come from a sit sstay, or a down stay
>> with no problem.
>> Though it took a few minutes of follow and heal with the clicker in my
>> hand and bits of kibble.
>>
>> My real objective here is to get Jake to stop if he is getting near the
>> no no mark in a yard, or park, and to return to me.
>> The only way I know of doing this currently is to set targets as near as
>> possible to the spot, and correct violently, something which puts as
>> much stress and disappointment in the results on both of us.
>>
>> I live in an apartment, and currently have no acquaintances with a back
>> yard, so have to run Jake in a semi-enclosed area which requires that
>> Jake learn the no zones.
>>
>> I maybe asking too much, but I have put too much work over the last two
>> years into our team to loose a darn good worker like Jake.
>> He suffers from people and doggy distractions, yet his work with out the
>> distractions is examplery.
>> I was told that he would require a yard and a place to run if I was to
>> stay with him.
>>
>> As I have seen chiguaguas mantain enough of an attention span to observe
>> such boundaries, I can't see why I should not expect a full fledge black
>> lab who has done two years of services as a guide dog not to.
>>
>> I am sure there some of you with quite extensive training on clicker
>> work, and if you are willing to work with me, you got an eager student.
>>
>> My thanks in advanced.
>>
>> D C
>>
>>
>
>
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> -- File: Sandy's Clicker Lessons.doc
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