(VICT) Re: Dog breeds

  • From: "dmgina" <dmgina@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 10:24:04 -0600

Talking about being your fault.
I am not out to put a school down, but I did stand up for myself.
I went to Pilot dogs for training.
One of the ladies there said I was giving double messages to the dog and 
that was the reason why the dog acted the way she did.
The lady wanted to make me cry but I stood up for myself.
I said if I was doing so bad with their dogs, then why am I to go home with 
one?
She got quiet.
I said I had many dogs in my years of traveling, and I know when a dog 
doesn't want to be a guide.
This dog I had at the time, would try to tip my chair over just to go to 
another dog.
I am sitting in the chair, while doing nothing but visiting with the folks.
So what sign am I giving to this dog who decides to jump up and drag my 
chair.
I told them if I ever fell over, they could keep their damn dog.
Well as I brought the dog home, with all kinds of junk on her neck and nose.
The dog tips me over backwards down a flight of stairs and drags me down the 
side walk to get to a dog.
She never made it to the dog, but I have a bad left shoulder because of her 
actions.
This will be with me the rest of my life.
I am not strong any more since I am a diabetic.
I have to have a dog gentle and willing to listen to verbal corrections more 
than leash ones.
this was how I got interested in clicker training.
My dog now, I just sing to him and he wags.
Maybe he doesn't know better giggle.
I am glad I moved on, but it was sad for me, because I had two dogs from 
this school.
the first one would have done well for me, except her feet were swollen.
She had so many allergies that I knew I couldn't keep up with her 
treatments.
They didn't tell me this until she started scooting on the floor.
They didn't want me to go to the vet with them because they knew if I did, I 
would have scolded the school.
The vet said to me, as I gave the dog back to them, that they couldn't 
understand how they would put a dog out with so many problems.
I knew if folks saw the swollen feet, they would put me down for having her 
walking out on the streets.
I also was told that the dog was out before, but the lady couldn't keep up 
with the treatments for the dog.
I also knew I needed to take care of myself first, with the medicines I need 
to take.
I am glad I was smart enough to go back to a different school.
Even if I go down stairs to do washing leaving my boy up here, my husband 
tells me he gets so sad.
He feels he needs to be rite with me.
I am please he feels this way.
The first time I had him at night, and the instructor came in to put drops 
in his ears, he talked to her.
She was his favorite instructor.
It made me cry to see how attached he was to her.
She said give him time, he will do the same for you.
He has, but I did wonder at the time if he would.
It was beautiful to see him talking to her.
She talked with him and told him he would be just fine.
Yes I use a walking cane, since I fall much easier than I did, but he just 
goes with stride, as if this was something done every day.
Just wanted to share my feelings,
I hope I didn't upset anyone.

--Dar
Every saint has a future,
Every sinner has a past
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:31 AM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds


> Hi Ann,
> Sounds like you win "the perfect dog" award. <G> Your chocolate lab sounds
> like the dog we all would love to have.
>
>  The problem with chocolates stemmed, as it often does with dogs, from the
> fact that that particular color of the breed became very popular.
> Unethical breeders were breeding for the chocolate trait. Like you said,
> all three colors appear in the same litter generally, so that takes so
> orchestration to increase the number of one particular color.
> Consequently, temperament suffered. Since most of the schools breed their
> own labs, this wouldn't impact their lines. It was unscrupulous breeders
> producing pet quality dogs so they could make money. Very sad. Something
> similar happened when cocker spaniels became so popular in the sixties.
> The one-time great family pet is now one that has to be chosen very
> carefully if it is to be around young children.
>
> I find your experiences with the Ficelco dogs very interesting. My first
> dog from them was a fantastic worker. I got her in 1987. As I believe I
> mentioned, her trainer kept her at home with her own dogs. No doubt this
> is why Ona had excellent house manners. But, I did have aggression
> problems with her. She was fine around other dogs as long as she was free.
> When in harness, everything changed and she would growl and try to lunge
> at times. I worked hard with her and avoided situations where I knew we
> would have to interact with other dogs while she was working. For a while,
> I blamed myself and thought that I might inadvertently be doing something
> that would make her think she had to protect me. I didn't know any other
> Fidelco grads and hadn't heard of anybody having this problem. So, because
> she was otherwise so good, I just dealt with it.
>
> It is also interesting that you heard from people that both of your gsd's
> should never have been placed. I had made friends with an apprentice
> instructor there and she told me that Tasha, my next dog, should never
> have been trained as a guide. She was distructive in the house and
> completely lacked confidence on the street. The dog I have now is also
> chews things and is not 100% housebroken, although she is better than she
> was when I got her.
>
> I am really glad you shared your experiences with Fidelco, because it
> actually makes me feel a little better. Whenever I have a dog in my home
> that has behavior problems, I stop and take a good hard look at myself to
> see if I am doing something to proliferate the issue. It is not uncommon
> for the owner/handler to be causing a problem when dogs are acting out. I
> have other dogs in my home and they are well behaved both in the house and
> out in public.
>
> Jill
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007, Ann Edie wrote:
>
>> Hi, Jill and All,
>>
>> I agree with you, Jill, that no matter what the reputation or the 
>> standard
>> of the breed says "should be" or "is" the characteristic of a breed, that
>> there will be exceptions to that statement.  Trainers and breeders to 
>> whom I
>> have spoken all say that although they have a picture of the typical 
>> member
>> of a breed in their minds, that you always have to look at the individual
>> and evaluate his/her traits through observation.  They say that there is
>> still more variation within a breed than among breeds.
>>
>> So much depends on a person's personal history and experience.  When I 
>> went
>> to the Seeing Eye in 1991, I told them that I wanted a female GSD.  The
>> "joke" back then was that they asked us what breed and sex of dog we 
>> wanted,
>> just so that they could give us something else.  That was borne out in my
>> case; they matched me with a male, chocolate Lab.
>>
>> But I certainly had a hard time finding fault with that dog, Bailey.  He 
>> was
>> my excellent guide for the next 9 years.  He was calm, tolerant, flexible 
>> in
>> all things, and had the best house manners imaginable!
>>
>> At the time, my children were young, and of course, there were lots of 
>> toys,
>> pieces of clothing, and sometimes food on the floor and on low surfaces 
>> in
>> my house.  Bailey never chewed on anything that wasn't his own toy!  It 
>> took
>> me exactly one little "talk" to train him not to eat the dogfood in the 
>> bowl
>> which was left out at all times for my other dog, a Schipperke.  Even 
>> though
>> Bailey loved food as much as the next Lab, he just wouldn't touch the 
>> food
>> in the other dog's bowl, even though it was the same food as he got, 
>> because
>> he had been told not to.  If the Schipperke took a piece of kibble out of
>> the bowl and dropped it on the floor and left it, then Bailey was free to
>> clean it up, and he did!
>>
>> Bailey was also not very distracted by people, except for his own family.
>> He would get excited if he saw another member of my family while we were 
>> out
>> walking around, which happened often, since I worked in the same school
>> where my children attended.  But he was not overly friendly or distracted 
>> by
>> other people.  So I could let people pat him without fear of his work
>> quality suffering.
>>
>> In those days at TSE, there was a tradition that after about the first 2
>> weeks of class, the instructors would show new handlers how to cut their
>> leashes to shorten them back to their original length, because the 
>> leashes
>> would have stretched due to the number of leash corrections which had 
>> been
>> administered during that time period.  Bailey's leash was the only one in
>> our class which did not need to be shortened.  It hadn't stretched, 
>> because
>> he needed so few corrections.
>>
>> At TSE, when a group of people and their young guides were sitting in the
>> lounge, and the dogs would start wrestling and playing with each other,
>> Bailey would lie quietly at my feet, as if to say, "These youngsters 
>> these
>> days, they just don't know how to behave like proper guide dogs!"  We 
>> used
>> to joke that Bailey must actually be a retired under-cover dog who had 
>> been
>> given a new identity as a guide dog because he was in the witness 
>> protection
>> program.  I was sure that once I went home with him, that the brown shoe
>> polish they had put on his muzzle to cover up the gray would come off, 
>> and I
>> would see that he was much older than the 21 months that his papers
>> proclaimed.
>>
>> Bailey was also absolutely undistractable around other animals!  Cats,
>> squirrels, deer, raccoons, birds--all were invisible to him!  There was 
>> more
>> than one occasion when a young dog would come running out from its yard 
>> as
>> we were walking past and would jump all over Bailey's head, attempting to
>> engage him in play.  And all Bailey would do is try to weave to avoid the
>> other dog, and shake his head to try to shake off the other dog, so that 
>> he
>> could see where he was going and continue on his way.
>>
>> Bailey did have skin allergies, which I have heard is a common issue in
>> chocolate Labs.  But behaviorally and in his guide work, I don't think I
>> could have asked for a better dog.  He was ready and willing to work at 
>> all
>> times, did excellent work in stressful environments, but was perfectly
>> content to lie around while I was working, without needing my attention 
>> for
>> long stretches.  As long as he was close to me, he was happy.
>>
>> I know that most of the pet chocolate Labs you see around are kind of 
>> wild
>> and scatter brained, but that certainly wasn't the case with Bailey.  And
>> since the chocolates are just a color variation of the same breed as the
>> black Labs and yellow Labs--you can have litters with 2 or all 3 
>> colors)--it
>> doesn't make sense that chocolates would have significantly different
>> character traits from the other colors.
>>
>> My wonderful experience with Bailey notwithstanding, I still wanted a 
>> German
>> shepherd guide dog.  So in 2001 I applied to Fidelco and got a female GSD
>> who was gazelle-like and beautiful, but had serious prey drive issues, 
>> would
>> chase anything that moved, animate or inanimate, and suffered all sorts 
>> of
>> physical and emotional consequences of the stress of guide work.  Her
>> trainers had recommended that she not be placed as a guide, but the
>> higher-ups at the school decided to place her anyway.  I kept her only 3
>> months, and then had to send her back for reevaluation after she lunged
>> barking and growling at a couple of children who were sitting in the
>> audience of a seminar near me.  The dog was career changed and went to 
>> live
>> with a family who were interested in possibly training her for search and
>> rescue work.
>>
>> I got another GSD, a male, this time, and worked with him for a year 
>> before
>> also having to concede defeat and send him back, due to severe dog and 
>> cat
>> aggression issues.
>>
>> Both these GSD's had terrible house manners.  They would chew anything 
>> they
>> could reach.  I learned to keep all the doors to bedrooms and bathrooms
>> closed tight, because the first thing they would do as soon as they were 
>> let
>> off leash was run to the upstairs bathroom and chew on and strew around
>> everything they found in the waste paper basket.  The male would also 
>> chew
>> stuffed animals and clothing, even though he had plenty of his own dog 
>> toys.
>> The male was also especially intent on stealing food from counters or 
>> even
>> cupboards.
>>
>> I found out later that the male had a history of counter surfing in his
>> puppy-raiser home.  And I also found out later that when the trainers had
>> taken the female on a trip with them to a convention during her training,
>> that as soon as they got to their hotel room and turned her loose, that 
>> she
>> had jumped up on the bed and done other unacceptable things, to the 
>> extent
>> that they had had to crate her for the duration of their stay.  Yet they
>> placed these two dogs without apparently doing any intensive remedial
>> training, and without giving me, the unsuspecting recipient, any warning 
>> of
>> the likely problems I would face.
>>
>> As a result of my experience, I would be very hesitant to get another GSD
>> guide, at least from that program.  I still like the breed in theory, but 
>> I
>> would look long and hard at a particular individual member of the breed
>> before deciding to try training it as a guide.  I would want to know the
>> puppy raisers very well, and know that the dog had learned appropriate 
>> house
>> manners.  And I would want to be sure that the dog was absolutely 
>> reliable
>> around other animals and around people of all ages and descriptions.
>>
>> I don't want an overly friendly dog, but I want one which is confident,
>> calm, and dignified.  And most of all, I want a guide which is loyal to 
>> me
>> and wants to work with me more than he wants anything else in the world.
>>
>> For now I have the perfect guide for me--Panda, my wonderful little
>> miniature horse!  But, if some day I decide to train or get another dog
>> guide, I will look very closely at the individual dog, more than at just 
>> the
>> breed, to be sure that the dog has the character traits and behavioral
>> habits that I feel are vital in a guide.
>>
>> I have really been enjoying reading this discussion on the list.
>>
>> Best regards to all,
>> Ann
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jill Gross" <jgross@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 2:31 AM
>> Subject: (VICT) Re: Dog breeds
>>
>>
>>> I agree that every dog is an individual. I have had people who have been
>>> exposed to a couple of salukis tell me that they are nervous and 
>>> skitish.
>>> They aren't supposed to be, but there are some out there that are. There
>>> are exceptions to every rule in both the negative and the positive 
>>> sense.
>>> There are those
>>> that think that all pitts should be shot on principle. But I have met 
>>> some
>>> pitts that are fine pets. I know a few boarding kennel owners who will 
>>> not
>>> take Gsd's and chocolate labs. They swear that both have been over bred
>>> and that they are nasty. Are some of them nasty, yes, but certainly not
>>> all.
>>>
>>> There are certain general traits that are attributable to each breed
>>> though. Vets have told me that they see more overweight labs than any
>>> other breeds out there. Then again, they are the most popular family dog
>>> today, so that could be why. And the very fact that they are so popular
>>> as pets does point to the fact that they tend to be very social and
>>> outgoing. I think it would be hard to argue that, in
>>> general, labs don't have a pretty serious food drive and that they are
>>> very friendly and people-oriented. There will be exceptions and,
>>> clearly, these tendencies are readily
>>> controlable. I know lots of folks who have
>>> labs as guides and they are wild about them. As I have said repeatedly,
>>> breed choice is a very personal thing. I would never go out of my way to
>>> own a lab again as either a working dog or as a pet, but I bet a lot of
>>> people who love labs would really not care for salukis and a lot of the
>>> other breeds that I favor. I just think that people who look to schools
>>> for their dogs should have more choices. At least nowadays, a lot of the
>>> schools allow people to pick from the selection of breeds available in 
>>> the
>>> program. When I first went to TSE in 1980, nobody was asking what you
>>> wanted.
>>>
>>> Yes, Leader has used some interesting breeds. I have heard of them using
>>> Bouviers as well. The school that trains vizslas has been doing so for
>>> years. They would be an interesting breed to look at as a guide.
>>>
>>> Jill
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Apr 2007, AnnaLisa Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I'm behind on email here, but I just wanted to say that both my guides,
>>>> one
>>>> a chocolate lab and now my current gorgeous golden, have had very good
>>>> house
>>>> manners.  Neither of them has ever been a table or counter surfer, and
>>>> neither one has been destructive at all.  I think it's an easy thing to
>>>> generalize about a breed being unruly or food distracted, but that can 
>>>> be
>>>> true of any dog.  I think a lot of it has to do with how they're 
>>>> raised.
>>>>
>>>> Also regarding breeds, I know that Leader is doing some experimenting
>>>> with
>>>> different breeds, one being the airdale terrier, and there is a puppy
>>>> raiser
>>>> right now who has a smooth coated collie, and she said he is a very
>>>> mellow,
>>>> sweet dog.  They also train standard poodles.  I think Southeastern
>>>> trains
>>>> vishalas (spelling?) and boxers.
>>>>
>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>>
>>>> AnnaLisa and Sundance
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> 7:39
>>>> AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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