[ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

From: Shane Fenwick <sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 05:48:11 +0000

Amen to that. Thought (I should add here theology) is only useful insofar as it
deepens discipleship.

Peace,

Shane Fenwick
Church Engagement Leader ― Sydney Region

[cid:image001.png@01D27BC0.436BC800]<https://www.uniting.org/>

…to inspire people, enliven communities
and confront injustice

Level 4, 222 Pitt Street, Sydney NSW 2000 ▪ 37-47 St Johns Road, Glebe, NSW 2037
M 0437 314 971
uniting.org<https://www.uniting.org/>

[cid:imagef02463.JPG@99495540.48bf5713]<https://twitter.com/weareuniting>
[cid:image6698ff.JPG@dbc9e79d.4a9ce533] <https://www.facebook.com/weareuniting>
[cid:image1652e4.JPG@5b7387bb.4191dc87]
<https://www.instagram.com/weareuniting/>
[cid:imagee560e8.JPG@6c3d442e.43ae4e7f]
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/uniting_nsw-act>
“Everybody can be great… because anybody can serve. You don’t have to have a
college degree to serve. You don’t have to make your subject and verb agree to
serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.” ― Martin
Luther King, Jr.
I pay respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, past, present and
future. Honouring our Elders and nurturing our youth.
This email and attachments are intended for the person it’s addressed to. If it
wasn’t meant for you, please let the sender know and delete it straight away.
At Uniting, we care about confidentiality and privacy and appreciate your
respect and cooperation. Thanks for your help with this. P.S. Please consider
the environment before deciding to press print.

From: ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
On Behalf Of David Gore
Sent: Wednesday, 21 February 2018 4:24 PM
To: ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

Yep Stephen.

[cid:image006.gif@01D3AB33.BFB77730]
Rev David Gore
Minister

[cid:image007.png@01D3AB33.BFB77730]
www.mustardseed.unitingchurch.org.au<http://www.mustardseed.unitingchurch.org.au>

On 21 Feb 2018, at 2:32 pm, Rev Stephen Matthews
<stephenmatthewsbcuca@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:stephenmatthewsbcuca@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Hello All

Yes, no, some of it , all of it, none of it.  -    I guess that sums up my
thoughts on this faith and works stuff.

The feet can not go where the head has not directed it.
Yet, there has not been many feed when people have just thoughts about it.

Beyond any drawn out hermeneutic, I think of these words:
JESUS: ‘Peter, do you love me?’
PETER: “Yes Lord, you know that I love you.”
JESUS: ‘Feed my lambs.’ .....
PETER: “Yes, Lord, I am thinking about it, okay"?

I do fear we spend too much time navel gazing and planning....I wonder when I
listen to a person presenting at a conference – have you done this or have your
spent your life just talking about it. I do not know about others, but I feel
better learning how to cook from a chef who has actually been used to feed
others.....and they have survived.

FaithWorks- yes!

Stephen

Rev. Stephen Matthews
Minister of the Word - Ministry Team Leader
Burwood-Croydon Related Congregations
M - 04 3337 3352 O- 02 9744 9635
134A Burwood Rd Burwood NSW 2134

Growing Life Changing Communities Who Love, Learn and Serve in Jesus Christ

From: David Gore<mailto:davidgore@xxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 1:21 PM
To: ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

Thanks Helen.

I see the dynamic of action informing and forming our beliefs at least as much
as study might.
None of this seems to be an x = y type equation.
Its more like a series of experiences and dialogues that in/form the stories
that in/form our values which in/form our beliefs => that give rise to our
values => stories => actions (and around again).

The notions of integration and integrity offer something here as well.
This is not about a good ‘show’.
It is about a solid reality which shows itself.
The reality of following Jesus in his self-giving.

<DG-vsm.gif>
Rev David Gore
Minister

<MustardSeed header block smallest.png>
www.mustardseed.unitingchurch.org.au<http://www.mustardseed.unitingchurch.org.au/>

On 21 Feb 2018, at 1:10 pm, Annandale Creative Arts Centre
<anncreative@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:anncreative@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Hi all,

Helen here (sorry didn't get round to the intro email yet - also at Newtown
Mission...can write that separately..)

So I think it's really helpful to find language that integrates faith and
action rather than seeing action as a bonus add-on to faith that comes first.
So will add an "amen" to that. (Reflecting on this recently speaking on faith
without works in James)

And so what I'm interested in is what implications does that have for how we
view discipleship or spiritual growth.
Does knowledge of the Bible in sermons and bible studies lead to action?
Or is faith learnt by doing?
Is our behaviour shaped by our belief or is our belief also shaped by
intentional behaviour/action? (taking the idea of 'we do what we believe' a
step further to say, does what we do also affect and shape what we believe?)
Do we need more apprenticeship-like discipleship? Or some common/collective
'doing' that grows us as disciples?
What could that look like in our gathered church life?

Just some things I'm challenged by at the moment and would love to go deeper
with!

Cheers,

Helen

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Shane Fenwick
<sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Amen, Graeme! Amen.

“The bigger story is that God is transforming the world  and that we are
called/summoned/invited to join in, which we do by following Jesus as the
ultimate revealer of who God is & what God is about. In doing so we have to lay
aside our own agendas (repent if you like) & open ourselves to the Spirit, but
it is for aligning ourselves with what God is about, not for an individual
transaction that assures me of a ticket to ‘heaven’.”

Peace,

Shane Fenwick
Church Engagement Leader ― Sydney Region

<image001.png><https://www.uniting.org/>

…to inspire people, enliven communities
and confront injustice

Level 4, 222 Pitt Street, Sydney
NSW<https://maps.google.com/?q=222+Pitt+Street,+Sydney+NSW&entry=gmail&source=g>
2000
▪<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
37-47 St Johns Road, Glebe, NSW
2037<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
M 0437 314 971
uniting.org<https://www.uniting.org/>

<image002.jpg><https://twitter.com/weareuniting>
<image003.jpg><https://www.facebook.com/weareuniting>
<image004.jpg><https://www.instagram.com/weareuniting/>
<image005.jpg><https://www.linkedin.com/company/uniting_nsw-act>
“Everybody can be great… because anybody can serve. You don’t have to have a
college degree to serve. You don’t have to make your subject and verb agree to
serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.” ― Martin
Luther King, Jr.
I pay respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, past, present and
future. Honouring our Elders and nurturing our youth.
This email and attachments are intended for the person it’s addressed to. If it
wasn’t meant for you, please let the sender know and delete it straight away.
At Uniting, we care about confidentiality and privacy and appreciate your
respect and cooperation. Thanks for your help with this. P.S. Please consider
the environment before deciding to press print.

From: ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
On Behalf Of Graeme Tutt
Sent: Tuesday, 20 February 2018 3:08 PM

To: ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

Hi everyone

Thanks for the input all. I appreciate the way of expressing the idea that
faith must show itself in actions if it’s genuine faith. I think that’s what
Paul would say & that Jesus & James would happily agree with!

A further thought is that it helps to avoid the faith/actions separation if we
find helpful ways to talk about what being a Christian is. In my experience the
idea of being a Christian has most often been based around ‘believing in
Jesus’, meaning assenting to a series of beliefs about Jesus being the Son of
God, dying for our sins & rising from the dead. These belief assents become the
content of the gospel, meaning that how we live becomes an added on extra.
Theologically that’s ‘sanctification’ as a secondary thing, almost an optional
extra, following on after justification. That’s not what Paul would have
intended by his focus on ‘justification’ (as Romans 6 makes clear, we’ve ‘died
to sin’) but it seems to follow by default in many understandings of the gospel
that centre on us being forgiven & justified.

A way around that is to emphasise that ‘being a Christian’ is about a bigger
story than my individual relationship with God. The bigger story is that God is
transforming the world  and that we are called/summoned/invited to join in,
which we do by following Jesus as the ultimate revealer of who God is & what
God is about. In doing so we have to lay aside our own agendas (repent if you
like) & open ourselves to the Spirit, but it is for aligning ourselves with
what God is about, not for an individual transaction that assures me of a
ticket to ‘heaven’. In joining in God’s project in this way we are assured of
being in God’s family etc, but as part of God’s way of reconciling all things.
Being in the ‘family of God’ and committing to God’s way must therefore mean
acting in accord with God’s way or project .. it just is a nonsense to think
you could ‘believe’ & not be part of the transformation within yourself & in
the world.

For me this lines up with Jesus coming to Jewish people who already believed in
God but summoning them to follow him & be part of the kingdom. It meant signing
up for God’s project as demonstrated in Jesus, thereby putting aside any other
notions they had.

Cheers
Graeme

Graeme Tutt
Senior Minister
9519 9000
www.newtownmission.org.au<http://www.newtownmission.org.au/>

From: Shane Fenwick<mailto:sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, 19 February 2018 2:33 PM
To: ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

I like that schema a lot, Dave. Makes me think of the theologian that Liam
Miller most recently interviewed on his Love – Rinse/Repeat
podcast<http://www.loverinserepeat.com/podcast>. He said something along the
lines of, “If our theology doesn’t manifest into action and love of neighbour,
it’s just functioning as a kind of auto-eroticism”! Excuse the language. ;-)

Thanks for your thoughts, Brian. Absolutely agree with you. I can completely
understand contextually why Luther did/said what he did/said – it was vital and
important (and was born out of his own existential struggles, too!). One of the
things I said to my friend was to be aware of how we project the 16th century
reformed understanding of “grace vs. works” onto the text, often without
realising it.

I wonder what this means for how we think about our mission, too. The more I
engage with the UCA Basis of Union, the more I’m aware of just how powerful the
document is. Are we living as a people of “reconciliation” and “renewal” in the
world? Do we really believe in the mission that we’ve been called to
participate in? I’m certainly challenged by it…!

Peace,

Shane Fenwick
Church Engagement Leader ― Sydney Region

<image001.png><https://www.uniting.org/>

…to inspire people, enliven communities
and confront injustice

Level 4, 222 Pitt Street, Sydney
NSW<https://maps.google.com/?q=222+Pitt+Street,+Sydney+NSW&entry=gmail&source=g>
2000
▪<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
37-47 St Johns Road, Glebe, NSW
2037<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
M 0437 314 971
uniting.org<https://www.uniting.org/>

<image002.jpg><https://twitter.com/weareuniting>
<image003.jpg><https://www.facebook.com/weareuniting>
<image004.jpg><https://www.instagram.com/weareuniting/>
<image005.jpg><https://www.linkedin.com/company/uniting_nsw-act>
“Everybody can be great… because anybody can serve. You don’t have to have a
college degree to serve. You don’t have to make your subject and verb agree to
serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.” ― Martin
Luther King, Jr.
I pay respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, past, present and
future. Honouring our Elders and nurturing our youth.
This email and attachments are intended for the person it’s addressed to. If it
wasn’t meant for you, please let the sender know and delete it straight away.
At Uniting, we care about confidentiality and privacy and appreciate your
respect and cooperation. Thanks for your help with this. P.S. Please consider
the environment before deciding to press print.

From: ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ucamission-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Gore
Sent: Friday, 16 February 2018 11:26 PM
To: ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ucamission@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

There is a little schematic that I am finding useful - as far as I know it
comes from my own thinking (so carries no particular authority).

It runs like this...
• We do that which we want/choose/desire to do.
• We want/choose/desire that which we value.
• We value that which we believe has value.

In short, we do what we believe.
If we do not do it, we do not believe it!
Even if we tell ourselves and/or other that we do believe something, if we fail
to enact it, that failure to enact reveals that we do not actually believe it.
All we have been doing with our theology is effectively soothing ourselves.
Theology has effectively become a self-indulgence when it is not enacted.
David

On 16 Feb 2018, at 10:07 pm, Bj
<eagl4031@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:eagl4031@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Protestants have been totally spooked by the Reformation mantra of faith, not
works. We need to study more the context of what indulgences we’re doing to
confession and spirituality in 16th century Catholicism. Luther’s obsession
with whether he was saved led him to understand faith and grace in Romans, not
by indulgences. Faith is being just before God. Works are the fruit of faith.
Jesus ministry was about works and Paul demonstrated that through his life’s
work.
Rev Brian Jago
0418785208
Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Feb 2018, at 4:57 pm, Shane Fenwick
<sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sfenwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
G’day Mission Co-Conspirators,

Hope you’re all well on this beautiful sunny Friday!

Glen and I were having a great little conversation on the topic of faith and
works (and its relation to how we understand our mission) over lunch which we
thought would be helpful to share with you all – and perhaps get a bit of a
conversation going!

Just yesterday, I shared Graham Long’s latest Inner Circle
note<https://www.waysidechapel.org.au/love-over-hate/> via my various social
media channels (if you haven’t yet read it, it is well worth the read). It
managed to generate a bit of conversation on Facebook, with Graham himself
chiming in at one point to share his thoughts. In particular, a friend of mine
couldn’t get his head around the following line:

“What I’d say to the religious is, we constantly pray, “Thy will be done”
because it can only be, “done”. What I say to those who wonder about such
things is, “God doesn’t care what anyone believes. Salvation comes through the
feet, not the head.”

A provocative line, right? My dear friend could not understand how this was not
advocating for “salvation through works”. I responded that I did not think this
was what Graham was saying. Rather, the point was being emphasised that
salvation is not merely about an intellectual ascent to a set of religious
propositions (i.e. believing the right things). Rather, salvation is a whole of
life thing! There should be no separation between faith and works: our faith is
made evident through our works. Our good works are faith embodied in real,
life-giving action. One does not exist without the other. Ephesians 2:8-9 is
often appealed to in conversation around the reformed concept of Sola Fide (us
being saved through “faith alone” in Christ). Yet, if we move ahead just one
line to v10, Paul ends with this point: that we have been created in Christ for
good works. Why have we been saved through faith (God’s gracious gift)? To
embody the transformative love of Jesus in the world: to love God, our
neighbour, and even those deemed our enemies. I think this is what it looks
like to participate in the mission of God in our neighbourhoods. God has
renewed and reconciled us to God’s Self in order that we may be a people of
renewal and reconciliation throughout the world (to borrow some of the BOU
language!). Anyhow, I’ll leave my Friday afternoon preaching there.

I’d love to hear all of your thoughts. How do we understand faith, works, and
salvation? And, how do they connect with our mission as the people of God in
the world?

Peace,

Shane Fenwick
Church Engagement Leader ― Sydney Region
<image001.png><https://www.uniting.org/>

…to inspire people, enliven communities
and confront injustice

Level 4, 222 Pitt Street, Sydney
NSW<https://maps.google.com/?q=222+Pitt+Street,+Sydney+NSW&entry=gmail&source=g>
2000
▪<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
37-47 St Johns Road, Glebe, NSW
2037<https://maps.google.com/?q=2000+%E2%96%AA*%0D+*37-47+St+Johns+Road,+Glebe,+NSW+2037&entry=gmail&source=g>
M 0437 314 971
uniting.org<https://www.uniting.org/>

<image002.jpg><https://twitter.com/weareuniting>
<image003.jpg><https://www.facebook.com/weareuniting>
<image004.jpg><https://www.instagram.com/weareuniting/>
<image005.jpg><https://www.linkedin.com/company/uniting_nsw-act>
“Everybody can be great… because anybody can serve. You don’t have to have a
college degree to serve. You don’t have to make your subject and verb agree to
serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.” ― Martin
Luther King, Jr.
I pay respect to the Traditional Custodians of the land, past, present and
future. Honouring our Elders and nurturing our youth.
This email and attachments are intended for the person it’s addressed to. If it
wasn’t meant for you, please let the sender know and delete it straight away.
At Uniting, we care about confidentiality and privacy and appreciate your
respect and cooperation. Thanks for your help with this. P.S. Please consider
the environment before deciding to press print.

--
Helen Wright
Creative Arts Pastor
Annandale Creative Arts Centre
Newtown Mission
anncreative@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:anncreative@xxxxxxxxx>

Work days: Wed-Sun

www.facebook.com/anncreative<http://www.facebook.com/anncreative>
www.annandalecreativearts.com<http://www.annandalecreativearts.com/>

References:
- [ucamission] Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Shane Fenwick
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Bj
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: David Gore
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Shane Fenwick
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Graeme Tutt
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Shane Fenwick
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Annandale Creative Arts Centre
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: David Gore
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: Rev Stephen Matthews
- [ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission
  - From: David Gore

[ucamission] Re: Faith, Works, and Mission

Other related posts: