[TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
- From: Michael Todd <birder1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ed.schneider@xxxxxxxxxxx, "littlezz@xxxxxxxxx" <littlezz@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 16:28:33 -0700 (PDT)
All,
Sorry to be coming into this conversation late, from just returning from 3
weeks
near Mexico City on a work trip (no birding at all, though Bumblebee
Hummingbird
was nice on grounds of our hotel). Very interesting discussion, and great
example of difficulty of id from partial views of a bird in one or two photos.
At a glance, it was quite Nashville like with the eyering and grayish looking
head, but I also agree that there isn't enough to eliminate Common
Yellowthroat,
which would be my call on the bird from just the images. The flanks really
aren't visible, and the shading below the breast is hard to see,etc. I think
the
bill looks better for Yellowthroat as well. This has been a great reminder of
how different perceptions can be. Thanks for bringing this bird to our
attention
Ed!
Mike
________________________________
From: Ed Schneider <ed.schneider@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "littlezz@xxxxxxxxx" <littlezz@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx" <csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx>; "rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx"
<rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; tn-bird <tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sun, July 1, 2012 10:19:31 AM
Subject: [TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
...as a photographer, I've certainly taken these into consideration. Once
again,
I was in deep Yellowthroat territory, and a Dickcissel was my intended target.
When this bird popped into view, the eye ring is what caught my attention, so I
got off a few (very long distance) shots. The other four shots are in the same
two poses, or I would have included them. A side profile might have been nice!
I agree with the majority here: the only signs that point to Nashville are
superficial, but they were enough to second guess myself in the field. Head
shape, bill shape, location, and time of year are strikes against this being a
first Summer record, but definitely make for great conversation. Thanks to all.
Next time I'll try to get some audio evidence as well ;-)
Ed Schneider
Davidson Co.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 30, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Bill Pulliam <littlezz@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
...which I think points out why it takes more than just a photo of a drab
little
green bird to document a first summer record for a boreal nesting bird. I'd
like some descriptions or documentation about vocalizations and behavior that
also appeared to exclude yellowthroat. When you have a choice between two
little green birds, one of which occurs by the thousands, the other of which
has
never been documented before, you have got to consider than an odd looking or
oddly-imaged individual of the former is probably more likely than a real
occurrence of the latter.
>
>
>Bill Pulliam
>Hohenwald TN
>
>
>On Jun 30, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Chris Sloan wrote:
>This illustrates some of the challenges of photos for ID. We're clearly
>interpreting what we see in the photo differently. For example, I initially
>had
>the same reaction about the crown patch, but then when I zoomed in and studied
>it more closely, it doesn't seem to be there at all. It's an interesting
>issue.
> If had has any more photos of the bird, maybe he can post them.
>
>Chris Sloan
>
>Nashville, TN
>>http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Richard Knight <rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>wrote:
>>
>>I can't believe we're discussing the same photo! To me the photos show little
>>>that even suggest Com. Yellowthroat. I have banded over 350 yellowthroats,
>so
>>>am familiar with close-up, in-hand looks at them.
>>>
>>>The head & bill shape are fine for Nashville, actually better than for
>>>yellowthroat.
>>>
>>>The eye ring is a little weak in front, but still within range for Nashville
>>>&
>>>rather strong
>>>for yellowthroat.
>>>
>>>In both photos, the light seems fine to distinguish the shade of gray on the
>>>head.
>>>
>>>You did not address the extensive, rather bright yellow underparts. A
>>>perfect
>>>fit
>>>for Nashville & all wrong for female yellowthroat. Immature male
>>>yellowthroat
>>>is,
>>>of course, eliminated by lack of any trace of black mask.
>>>
>>>In the second photo, looking at the top of the head, we can see what appears
>>>to
>>
>>>be traces of the crown patch of Nashville, which is often partially or mostly
>>>concealed.
>>>
>>>While the null hypothesis is a good thing & should be part of our approach
>>>to
>>>ID,
>>>
>>>it doesn't always work in nature, otherwise we would never see a rare bird.
>>>
>>>Rick Knight
>>>Johnson City, TN
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Chris Sloan
>>>>To: rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Cc: tn bird
>>>>Sent: 6/29/2012 6:37:18 PM
>>>>Subject: [TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
>>>>
>>>>Here's why I believe this is a Common Yellowthroat:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. The bill and head shape are all wrong for Nashville. Nashville is one
>>>>of
>>>>the smallest warblers and has a very thin, sharply pointed bill with a
>>>>dove-like, very rounded head. This bird shows the heavier bill and flatter
>>>>head
>>>>shape that is a typical of a yellowthroat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>2. The white eye-ring is nowhere near thick and prominent enough for a
>>>>Nashville. Nashville shows a very thick, bright, uniform white eye ring.
>>>> This
>>>>bird shows a fairly weak eye ring. Admittedly it's more prominent than
>>>>most
>>>>yellowthroats, but it's nowhere near strong enough for a Nashville.
>>>> Yellowthroats can show a pale eye ring like this at times.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>3. The color or the head is misleading. Yellowthroats have a grayish
>>>>brown
>>>>head also, but the real test is the contrast between the head and the rest
>>>>of
>>>>the upperparts, which is uniform in yellowthroat and sharply contrasting in
>>>>Nashville. We can't see that in these photos. I do not believe the color
>>>>shown
>>>>here is as gray as Rick interprets. It's hard to say for sure in that
>>>>light,
>>>>but to me it looks fine for a yellowthroat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Remember that the null hypothesis here has to be Common Yellowthroat at
>>>>this
>>>>time of year, particularly in a location that is quite literally covered up
>>>>with
>>>>them as breeders. In my opinion, this bird shows no characteristics that
>>>>are
>>>>inconsistent with a Common Yellowthroat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Chris Sloan
>>>>Nashville, TN
>>>>http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Chris Sloan <csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I will post more substantive comments when I have time after work, but I
>>>>stand
>>>>by my response to Ed that, in my opinion, this is quite clearly a Common
>>>>Yellowthroat for a number of reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Chris Sloan
>>>>>Nashville, TN
>>>>>http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Richard Knight <rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A few days back Ed Schneider posted a photo of a warbler for which he was
>>>>>>unsure
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>the ID. In an off-list email conversation, he said the the consensus
>>>>>>opinion
>>>>>>was for
>>>>>>female Common Yellowthroat. There has been no public discussion of the
>>>>>>ID, so I
>>>>>>am
>>>>>>
>>>>>>weighing in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I believe it is a Nashville Warbler.
>>>>>>My reasoning:
>>>>>>1) the head is too gray for female Com. Yellowthroat, which should be
>>>>>>brownish-olive.
>>>>>>2) the eye-ring is a little too bold, but head color & eye-ring are
>>>>>>right for
>>>>>>Nashville.
>>>>>>3) the yellow underneath is too extensive & even-toned for yellowthroat,
>>>>>>which
>>>>>>should
>>>>>> be shaded from fairly bright in throat to dull yellow on lower
breast.
>>>>>>4) culmen shape appears to be straight, unlike slightly down-curved for
>>>>>>yellowthroat.
>>>>>>The amount of yellow underneath & bill shape are good for Nashville.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>While Nashville Warblers in spring migration usually occur higher up in
>>>>>>trees
>>>>>>than the
>>>>>>bird in the photo, which is in blackberry brambles, I often see fall
>>>>>>migrant
>>>>>>Nashvilles
>>>>>>in low shrubby stuff including goldenrod & ragweed. So habitat shouldn't
>>>>>>be an
>>>>>>issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Photo IDs are sometimes harder than in-life IDs, since there is only one
>>>>>>angle
>>>>>>per photo,
>>>>>> no vocalizations or behavioral clues, etc. However, you can stare at
>>>>>>the photo
>>>>>>for as
>>>>>>long as you want & analyze visible details.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Apparently this would be the first summer record of a Nashville Warbler
>>>>>>in TN,
>>>>>>as
>>>>>>Robinson (1990) lists none & I don't recall any since then. It could be
>>>>>>a very
>>>>>>late
>>>>>>spring migrant or, more likely, an early fall migrant (perhaps a failed
>>>>>>breeder)
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>a wandering non-breeder. Nashvilles do nest as far south as northern
>>>>>>West
>>>>>>Virginia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Comments welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rick Knight
>>>>>>Johnson City, TN
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: Ed Schneider
>>>>>>>To: tn bird
>>>>>>>Sent: 6/23/2012 3:39:54 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: [TN-Bird] Nashville Warbler (???)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bells Bend Park, Davidson Co.
>>>>>>>23 June, 2012
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I realize there are no summer records for this bird, and I wouldn't
>>>>>>>expect there
>>>>>>>to be. I of course thought I was
>>>>>>>photographing a female Common Yellowthroat, but the eye ring seemed WAY
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>strong compared to the female
>>>>>>>and first year yellowthroats I've seen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That being said, the bill shape doesn't scream Oreothylpis to me at all,
>>>>>>>and the
>>>>>>>habitat is of course all wrong for
>>>>>>>Nashville even in migration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Anyone care to share some thoughts on a bird that threw me for a small
>>>>>>>loop this
>>>>>>>morning? I imagine COYE can
>>>>>>>be extremely variable, and I'm still an advanced novice at best...
>>>>>>>always nice
>>>>>>>to get a photo of a questionable bird,
>>>>>>>however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>Ed Schneider
>>>>>>>Davidson Co.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
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