Same here in New Hampshire USA, Mark. And when you toss a compact fluorescent lamp away you are also tossing an electronic ballast as well, not just a tube with phosphors in it and some mercury. The CFL Hg level is very small but when you toss millions of them away, that's not an insignificant amount of mercury. Recycling, which is what should have been legislated, not lead-free RoHS. Bob Landman H&L Instruments,LLC -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mark Vaughan Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 2:38 PM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: tinwhiskers Digest V1 #70 For tubes though that only applies to commercial firms. They've kicked all houses over to try and use these energy saving light bulbs, basically a folded up fluorescent tube. These must now be getting to pretty big numbers similar I would have thought to normal fluorescent tubes. But for members of the public there is no instruction what to do with dead ones, the public don't know about, or understand weee, neither do the municipal waste collectors guess what skip they tell you to put them in - the landfill one. They won't let you put them in the fluorescent tube one. They do collect batteries, TV's and Video's, but turn up with an old PCB, or computer and you get the same instruction - in the landfill. They haven't heard of weee. I recently turned up with 500Kg of ABS from bathroom fittings, they collect plastics if it's milk bottles, but ABS, guess where that goes. In my county recycling seems to be a joke, yet the public claim is they are on target. Regs Mark Dr. Mark Vaughan Ph'D., B.Eng. M0VAU Managing Director Vaughan Industries Ltd., reg in UK no 2561068 Water Care Technology Ltd, reg in UK no 4129351 Addr Unit3, Sydney House, Blackwater, Truro, Cornwall, TR4 8HH UK. Phone/Fax 44 (0) 1872 561288 RSGB DRM111 (Cornwall) -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rex Waygood Sent: 27 August 2008 08:07 To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: tinwhiskers Digest V1 #70 The high lead content solder has to be used for a technical reason such as hierarchical soldering. No technical reason, no exemption. I don't know where you live but disposal of fluorescent tubes in landfill is illegal, they are hazardous/special waste. I pay a lot of money to have them removed and disposed of legally and have the paperwork to show that. Rex Waygood Technical Manager PartnerTech Poole Ltd Benson Road Poole Dorset BH17 0RY United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0)1202 674333 Fax: +44 (0)1202 678028 DDI: +44 (0)1202 338222 Mob: +44 (0)7887 997403 Rex.Waygood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.PartnerTech.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager [mailto:ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: 27 August 2008 07:04 To: tinwhiskers digest users Subject: tinwhiskers Digest V1 #70 tinwhiskers Digest Tue, 26 Aug 2008 Volume: 01 Issue: 070 In This Issue: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:24:19 +0200 From: "Niki Steenkamp" <niki@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm ------------------------------ Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:31:31 -0400 From: "Mason, Bert" <bertm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm ------------------------------ From: "Parnagian, Ed" <ed.parnagian@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:03:58 +0200 Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Bert! Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ------------------------------ From: "Parnagian, Ed" <ed.parnagian@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:14:22 +0200 Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Nikki! Sorry, but my email app sorts from most recent down, so didn't notice that you were the originator of these questions. So here is my perspective. And yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. The small amount of mercury in flouresent lights is part of the internal coating on the glass. And the fact that these tubes won't emit an acceptable spectrum of light without the mercury. Combine that with the prospect of replacing all those flouresents with incandesents would consume even more electricity. And by the way, those tubes ought to be treated as hazardous waste and turned into the local municipality as such, not put in the weekly trash. My town won't knowingly pick them up. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ------------------------------ From: "Mike Finczak" <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:53:08 -0400 Niki, Bert and Ed, Take a look at this article posted on TomsHardware regarding Nvidia GPU failures. The failures may have been caused by the use of High Lead solder. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GPU-failure,6248.html Regards, Mike Finczak CopperCAD Design www.CopperCAD.com 905-488-8958 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Parnagian, Ed Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:04 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Bert! Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ------------------------------ From: "Parnagian, Ed" <ed.parnagian@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 17:25:47 +0200 Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Really good information, Mike! This could really be another tip on the RoHS iceberg. I believe that high lead-content solders have been around for quite a few years, but this could be that there is a "new" succeptibility for high lead solders associated with the higher processing temperatures associated with SAC305 assembly processes? This looks like something that should be hitting the CPUs, as well. The really sad thing about this is that the general public is oblivious to the uncertain product quality that they are laying down their money for. And if anyone in industry tries to wake them, that person's employer will get a blackeye, the we all know what that will result in for the employee. Very troubling, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Finczak Sent: 2008 Aug 26 10:53 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Niki, Bert and Ed, Take a look at this article posted on TomsHardware regarding Nvidia GPU failures. The failures may have been caused by the use of High Lead solder. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GPU-failure,6248.html Regards, Mike Finczak CopperCAD Design www.CopperCAD.com 905-488-8958 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Parnagian, Ed Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:04 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Bert! Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 08:46:26 -0700 From: Steve Smith <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hello Ed and Mike The Truth Is Out There. Just refer the general public to this Knol(a unit of knowledge, courtesy of Google), published in Google's new on-line encyclopedia: http://knol.google.com/k/steve-smith/tin-whiskers/e1osj187cpek/6# Tell your local radio station, television station and newspaper anywhere in the world that here is the Truth about a very controversial hot story. Steve Smith > Really good information, Mike! > This could really be another tip on the RoHS iceberg. I believe that > high lead-content solders have been around for quite a few years, but > this could be that there is a "new" succeptibility for high lead > solders associated with the higher processing temperatures associated > with SAC305 assembly processes? > This looks like something that should be hitting the CPUs, as well. > The really sad thing about this is that the general public is > oblivious to the uncertain product quality that they are laying down > their money for. And if anyone in industry tries to wake them, that > person's employer will get a blackeye, the we all know what that will > result in for the employee. > Very troubling, > Ed > -----Original Message----- > From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Finczak > Sent: 2008 Aug 26 10:53 AM > To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder > Niki, Bert and Ed, > Take a look at this article posted on TomsHardware regarding > Nvidia GPU failures. The failures may have been caused by > the use of High Lead solder. > http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GPU-failure,6248.html > Regards, > Mike Finczak > CopperCAD Design > www.CopperCAD.com > 905-488-8958 > -----Original Message----- > From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Parnagian, Ed > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:04 AM > To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder > Hi, Bert! > Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it > is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. > These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. > They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects > in devices that have very high power densities. > Best regards, > Ed > -----Original Message----- > From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert > Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM > To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder > Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. > Welcome to our world > Best Regards, > Bert Mason > Quality Engineer > Formation Inc. > Building 1 > 121 Whittendale Dr. > Moorestown, NJ 08057 > Phone: 856-380-2956 > Fax: 856-234-5242 > -----Original Message----- > From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM > To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder > Hi, > I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have > seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more > than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I > was > wondering: > * Why the exemption exists? > * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? > Maybe > the temperature is unacceptably high? > I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent > lights. > Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in > landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable > while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead > in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car > battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these > batteries end up in landfills each year? > Just seems strangely warped... > Regards, > Niki > E-mail Disclaimer > http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm > The information contained in this message may be confidential and > legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely > for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or > reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the > sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -- Best regards, Steve Smith www.consultingscientist.us http://www.pickensplan.com/ ------------------------------ From: Engelmaier@xxxxxxx Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:21:39 EDT Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi Ed, There are a number of possible and possibly interacting scenarios. 1) larger CPU chips are subject to larger 'global' and 'local' thermal expansion mismatches-- using eutectic SnPb does help the 'global' mismatch and there is a design solution for the 'local' mismatch; 2) the higher soldering T's required for SAC solders produce larger 'global' and 'local' thermal expansion mismatches--that is a direct fault of RoHS; 3) reduced solder joint thickness [to reduce overall package thickness] produces higher cyclic SJ strains for the same 'global' expansion mismatch. Werner Future workshops: Pb-Free Soldering Processes: Survival, Quality, Reliability, September 3, Stockholm, Sweden Reliability Issues with Lead-Free Soldering Processes, September 22, Schaumburg Failure Mode and Root Cause Analyses Reliability (Fatigue, Brittle Fracture, ENIG), September 22, Schaumburg Solder Joint Reliability: Parts 1 & 4, Oct. 9, Moscow, Russia Solder Joint Reliability: Part 4, Oct. 17, Timisoara, Rumania Solder Joint Reliability: Parts 1 & 4, Oct. 22, Tallinn, Estonia ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) ------------------------------ Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:21:43 -0400 From: "Fritz, Dennis D." <DENNIS.D.FRITZ@xxxxxxxx> What is being described here is the C4 technology of flip chips. Here is a Wikipedia link to the description of "Controlled Collapse Chip Connection" - the C4. High lead balls have been used in this application since IBM invented this in the 60's, and I think this is the basis for the RoHS exemption. Now that eutectic or SAC are being considered, I would expect the RoHS exemption to go away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_chip Denny Fritz, SAIC ________________________________ From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Mike Finczak Sent: Tue 8/26/2008 10:53 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Niki, Bert and Ed, Take a look at this article posted on TomsHardware regarding Nvidia GPU failures. The failures may have been caused by the use of High Lead solder. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GPU-failure,6248.html Regards, Mike Finczak CopperCAD Design www.CopperCAD.com 905-488-8958 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Parnagian, Ed Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:04 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Bert! Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ------------------------------ Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:31:02 -0700 From: "White, Robert" <Robert.White@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> I don't think it will go away anytime soon since the exemption is also used for die attach in high power semi-conductors used in power diodes, IGBT's and FET's. Power supplies, as well as many other applications, including power conversion for all the new alternative energy solutions, require high power semi-conductors. Best Regards, Bob White Director of Safety and Environmental Compliance Power-One, Inc. Tel: (805) 384-5391 Cell: (805) 469-4347 ________________________________ From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Fritz, Dennis D. Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:22 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder What is being described here is the C4 technology of flip chips. Here is a Wikipedia link to the description of "Controlled Collapse Chip Connection" - the C4. High lead balls have been used in this application since IBM invented this in the 60's, and I think this is the basis for the RoHS exemption. Now that eutectic or SAC are being considered, I would expect the RoHS exemption to go away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_chip Denny Fritz, SAIC ________________________________ From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Mike Finczak Sent: Tue 8/26/2008 10:53 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Niki, Bert and Ed, Take a look at this article posted on TomsHardware regarding Nvidia GPU failures. The failures may have been caused by the use of High Lead solder. http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Nvidia-GPU-failure,6248.html Regards, Mike Finczak CopperCAD Design www.CopperCAD.com 905-488-8958 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Parnagian, Ed Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 9:04 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, Bert! Yes, it seems inconsistent with the stated objectives of RoHS, but it is a good example of what pushing back with data can achieve. These high lead-content solders all have very high melting points. They are used by device manufacturers to make internal interconnects in devices that have very high power densities. Best regards, Ed -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mason, Bert Sent: 2008 Aug 26 8:32 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: Exemption on high temperature lead solder Abandon all rationality Ye who enter the world of RoHS and the EU. Welcome to our world Best Regards, Bert Mason Quality Engineer Formation Inc. Building 1 121 Whittendale Dr. Moorestown, NJ 08057 Phone: 856-380-2956 Fax: 856-234-5242 -----Original Message----- From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niki Steenkamp Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:24 AM To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tinwhiskers] Exemption on high temperature lead solder Hi, I have been looking over some of the official RoHS documents and have seen that there is an exemption on high temperature lead solder (more than 85% lead). Not having done any more research on the subject I was wondering: * Why the exemption exists? * Why not use more than 85% lead to circumvent the pure tin problem? Maybe the temperature is unacceptably high? I also noticed that mercury is limited but not banned in fluorescent lights. Just thinking of the millions of fluorescent lights being dumped in landfills each year I cannot see how this can be viewed as acceptable while ALL lead had to be removed from electronics. Furthermore, lead in batteries are exempt. There is probably more lead in my car battery than in a thousand PC motherboards and how many of these batteries end up in landfills each year? Just seems strangely warped... Regards, Niki E-mail Disclaimer http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 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