[tinwhiskers] Re: [SPAM]Re: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: IPC expresses concerns on possible ROHS revisions

  • From: "Bob Landman" <rlandman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:14:02 -0400

Steve, this is a very interesting suggestion.  I will run it by an 
environmental lawyer friend of mine.

Bob Landman 

-----Original Message-----
From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:51 AM
To: John Burke
Cc: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning 
Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A. (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'; 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; 
'(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Subject: [tinwhiskers] Re: [SPAM]Re: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: IPC expresses 
concerns on possible ROHS revisions

Hello John,

You know, I was doing some on-line research over the weekend and I had one of 
those sudden realizations...you know how it is when the light bulb turns on?

I think that permitting RoHS standards and limits to be implemented in the U. 
S. violates United States of America Federal Law.

Here, an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIS) has to be done before almost 
anything can be done that might affect the environment, and it has to be 
scientifically sound and subjected to scientific scrutiny.
Evidently in Europe, in the EU they do not have such regulations as requiring a 
EIS.

Here's one of many on-line references to this:
http://www.library.northwestern.edu/transportation/searcheis.html

The National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 requires that federal agencies 
prepare detailed analyses of any of their actions that significantly affect the 
quality of the environment. Environmental impact statements (EIS's) are the 
result of this requirement. EIS's have been produced, since 1969, on virtually 
every type of activity, from oil and gas development to scientific research in 
Antarctica, and from protection of wildlife habitat to construction of light 
rail lines.
===================================================================

Nowadays this kind of thing has spread to any city, county or state government 
action that might affect the environment. A person building a building on their 
own land may be asked to do this. It now affects private industry as well as 
governmental actions.

I think it might be possible for any government agency or municipality or even 
a non-profit group or private individual to bring suit in Federal court to stop 
components manufacturers from using pure-tin-plated components or importing 
them or, for that matter, importing anything containing pure-tin-plated 
components or solders that did not contain a minimum amount of lead into the U. 
S., until a EIS has been done.

Steve Smith

> OK got to go, did a fast search look here:

>  

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems

>  

> Quote from above:

>  

> The game console heats up during use, and given enough time, the 
> temperature inside can reach very high levels due to insufficient 
> cooling. Because of the way the Xbox 360 is constructed, this may 
> result in stresses building up between the delicate ball grid array 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array>  solder 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder>  joints of the CPU and GPU and 
> the motherboard <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motherboard> , causing 
> them to break. The problem is exacerbated by the specific type of 
> lead-free <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Lead-free_solder>  
> solder used, a type which is more brittle than the older tin/lead 
> solder that was used in the past and the GPU's location directly 
> underneath the DVD drive. [28] 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems#cite_note-ih
> s-27#c
ite_note-ihs-27>> 

> German computer magazine c't <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%27t> , in 
> an article titled "Jede dritte stirbt den Hitzetod" (every third one 
> dies of heat), published in July 2006, blames the problems primarily 
> on the use of the wrong type of lead-free solder, a type that when 
> exposed to elevated temperatures for extended periods of time becomes 
> brittle <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittleness>  and can develop 
> hair-line cracks <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)>  
> that are almost irreparable.[ 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems#cite_note-ct
> -28#ci
te_note-ct-28>> 

>  

>  

>  

>  

> John Burke

>  

> (408) 515 4992

>   _____

> From: John Burke [mailto:john@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:33 AM
> To: 'RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'; 'tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'; 
> 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A. (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
> Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly 
> Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Subject: RE: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses 
> concerns on possible ROHS revisions

>  

> The solder joints were indeed overstressed due to thermal 
> expansion/contraction of the chip leading to early fatiguing of the joints.
> I saw photographs of the "fix" which entailed re-soldering the chip 
> and then applying epoxy to the corners to mechanically hold the GPU to 
> the board and mechanically constrain it.

>  

> I do not have time to look up the photographs which were at the time 
> put on line as I have to go into hospital for about a week but if 
> anyone on this link has the web links put on line at the time about 2 
> years ago please post them otherwise I will search them when I get out 
> (If they let me out...8-(

>  

> John

>  

>  

>  

> John Burke

>  

> (408) 515 4992

>   _____

> From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Klaus Reindl
> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 11:32 PM
> To: 'John Burke'; RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 
> tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A.
> (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
> Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly 
> Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Subject: AW: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses 
> concerns on possible ROHS revisions

>  

> Dear John,

>  

> since I still have connections to several former RoHS workgroups

> (German ZVEI and several automotive Tier 1 suppliers), I would be very 
> interested in specifics

> of the Xbox 360 casus.

> I only have heard and read very general info-one was that a processor 
> was "thermally overstressed due to

> a board design flaw".

> But the source of this info can be ranked close to rumour.

>  

> So, if you have proven facts, please disseminate them.

>  

> Thanks a lot, nice week and kind regards,

> Klaus

>  

>  

>  

>   _____

> Von: John Burke [mailto:john@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. August 2008 23:10
> An: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 
> klaus-reindl@xxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A.
> (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
> Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly 
> Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Betreff: [!! SPAM] RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC 
> expresses concerns on possible ROHS revisions

>  

> Interesting comment - apologies for the late reply but I have been 
> travelling.

>  

> Unexpected catastrophe? I guess that 3.5 billion dollars that had to 
> be reserved by Microsoft as a result of all of it's Xbox 360 
> processors being unreliable due to lead free could be cataloged under that 
> heading??

>  

>  

>  

> John Burke

>  

> (408) 515 4992

>   _____

> From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Landman
> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:56 AM
> To: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 
> klaus-reindl@xxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A.
> (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
> Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly 
> Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Subject: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses 
> concerns on possible ROHS revisions

>  

> Dear Klaus,

> Thank you for your kind comments.  I noted that you said that

> "the bulk of the transition to Pb-free is or will be done. So far, we 
> have not heard of an unexpected catastrophe."

> I would remind everyone that there have been some well documented 
> failures, including at nuclear power plants.  See http://nepp.
> <http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/failures/index.htm>
> nasa.gov/WHISKER/failures/index.htm and this website is always being 
> updated with new facts of failures.

> The problem is that NASA knows of many failures but are not permitted 
> to share them all as the manufacturers and military/aerospace agencies 
> who come to them for help and failure analysis, forbid them to disclose the 
> problems.

> What manufacturer wants to wash it's dirty laundry in public?

> So, how will we know of these failures?  Will Sony and Toshiba and 
> Philips and Siemens tell us?  Or will the products that fail, fail 
> intermittantly, fail and be thrown away in some landfill (not 
> recycled)? Isn't this more likely to happen since we have had failures 
> and there is no lead free solder that prohibits whiskers (and yes, 
> even lead solders have very tiny (5 micron gnarly)whiskers, I know that).

> So, how many failures does it take to convince the EU they have made a 
> terrible mistake?

> Inquiring minds would certainly like to know where that trip point is! 100?
> 1000? 10,000?  A million? Do they care at all?

> Bob Landman, President
> Senior Member, IEEE PES
> H&L Instruments, LLC
> 34 Post Road, PO Box 580
> North Hampton, NH 03862-0580
> (tel) 603-964-1818 (fax) 603-964-8881
> www.hlinstruments. <http://www.hlinstruments.com> com

> ________________________________

> From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Klaus Reindl
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 2:46 AM
> To: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly 
> Forum)'; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Subject: AW: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses 
> concerns on possible ROHS revisions

> Bob,

> thank you for your valuable inputs.

> For European manufacturers they may look a bit biased, given that the 
> RoSH legislation has been put in practice pretty much.

> For the US, it may be a well-balanced view, since (in my view), RoHS 
> has not at all found broad acceptance in the US.

> Of course, also in Europe the Pandora's box of problems with the main 
> replacement for the eutectic PbSn solder system-Sn outerleads plating 
> and SAC or doped SnCu solders are known: Poorer wettability, poorer 
> reliability under slow dT/dt excursions, lower performance in drop 
> tets, Sn whiskers on non-soldered, Sn plated Cu or Alloy 42 lead surfaces.

> In order to eliminate or at least decrease those problems, many 
> measures, based on material sciences,  have been introduced on the 
> component and board soldering sides.

> But as you state, the problems could not be solved completely yet.
> Especially the Sn whisker issue is still open. The whisker stress 
> tests -called accelerating, without any acceleration factor being 
> known-are more of a pacifier for worried moods rather than a scientifically 
> based approach.

> By the way, Sn whiskers also were reported with eutectic SnPb plating 
> and soilders, albeit on a much lower scale.

> But it is fruitless to again and again scrape in open wounds.

> At least here in Europe and in Japan and soon in China and Korea and 
> California (to name a few), the bulk of the transition to Pb-free is 
> or will be done.

> So far, we have not heard of an unexpected catastrophe.

> It only leaves us engineers to stay vigilant, in order to avoid more 
> regulation without valid physics background, being enforced on the industry.

> Best regards,

> Klaus Reindl

> __._,_.___

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-- 
Best regards,

Steve Smith <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
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