[THIN] Re: To heck with Virtual Machines... I want virtual logons!
- From: "Rick Mack" <Rick.Mack@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:56:18 +1000
Hi Jim,
Thems not the MicroVaxes I worked on (boards 10.45 x 8.43 inches). NASA must
have been using bloated up MicroVaxes, or were you using real and not Micro
VAXen?
Used to be able to do some amazing things with VAX clusters.
Over 20 years after the VAX cluster hit the streets Microsoft have finally got
a "clustereable" product in Windows Compute Cluster Server 2003.
Pity it's designed for parallel computing because it'd make a really
interesting TS environment. Automatic session failover and everything....
regards,
Rick
Ulrich Mack
Volante Systems
________________________________
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Jim Kenzig http://ThinHelp.com
Sent: Tue 1/08/2006 10:36
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: To heck with Virtual Machines... I want virtual logons!
You are correct they did!! it was pretty novel idea to say the least. I used
to work on Microvax II's at NASA in the day. I miss the old 2 ft by 2 ft
computer cards.
Jim
Steve Snyder <kwajalein@gma> wrote:
At the risk of dating myself I'll point out that the old microVAX
clusters used shared memory between the machines - a technique that though it
may not necessarily provide the complete solution for your idea it's something
that could likely facilitate its feasibility nonetheless. If only Microsoft can
catch up with where DEC was ages ago...
On 8/1/06, Jim Kenzig http://ThinHelp.com <http://thinhelp.com/> <>
wrote:
But they are doing that with Vmotion and the virtual machine
copy so it stands to reason you could probably do it if you put the memory as
part of the virtual session logon. No?
Andrew Wood <> wrote:
but its instance in time - you seem to be thinking of a
session in a static state.
Say I'm working on database entry application, or a
business objects report, or in a large word document cutting anad pasting text
between various documents.
Its not good enough that the document or data entry to
be saved on a regular basis - if I want to transport my session between servers
I need to take that whole memory state for each of my running processes.
Maintaining that copy in a transient and portable way - without losing data is
going to be complicated - imo you'd have to be able to replicate memory states
between servers writing to a disk and compressing for transfer would take too
long, especially for a complex, or rapidly changing memory states.
________________________________
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Kenzig http://ThinHelp.com
<http://thinhelp.com/>
Sent: 31 July 2006 15:02
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: To heck with Virtual Machines... I
want virtual logons!
Ok think of it this way. Your logon is sandboxed into
a "virtual area of memory" there are tools like Vizioncore for example that can
take a virtual machine and compress it while backing it up. Why not do this on
the fly for sessions? Compress, move decompress... I am not sure of the
timeframe it would take but it certainly is possible. I am not sure that you
really need to move memory other than the contents of the clipboard
anyways..with longhorn and the way it stores objects in a db instead of a
registry this all becomes possible I think. Don't think backwards about how
things work now and try and apply it, think about how things could work and
apply it and you will see it is a very viable solution.
Jim
Jeff Pitsch <> wrote:
No, I'm talking of moving your session. You
session is so much more than simply the profile. I believe the OP was
referring to moving your entire session from one device to another. That's
what I'm referencing. You would have to take all that information (page file,
physical memory, etc etc etc) conslidate it and move it. To me, that seems a
huge task to undertake and I don't see, currently, how it would be viable.
Jeff Pitsch
Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
Forums not enough?
Get support from the experts at your business
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On 7/31/06, Jim Kenzig http://ThinHelp.com
<http://thinhelp.com/> <wrote:
Yeah..the sunray was a cool idea but
you can do that with Citrix. It is just suspending the session and putting it
in a disconnect state.. not really moving it anyplace.
And Jeff as far as size goes. There is
no fricking reason your profile should be that big.
The persons data files, favorites, etc
should be stored in a home directory on another files server. I'm talking about
server based computing here..not your home laptop. The idea is that say for
example I have 5 word docuements open and my session needs to be moved. The
documents will be saved to the home directory, the session moved and then
reaccessed in the same state as to where you left off on the new server with
the same 5 documents opened.
The idea is something whose time has
come and I really do believe is the next thing you are going to see in the
virtualization world. Microsoft now owns all the pieces to be able to do this
with it's acquisition of Softricity. I think MS should pay close attention to
this discussion and by continuing it here we could work out all the possible
scenarios and details of what such a system would entail.
Jim
Matt Kosht <matt.kosht@ wrote:
Didn't Sun already attempt this with
the Sunray? It has "hot desking"
allowing you to disconnect and move
around to other Sunrays keeping
your session alive. Admittedly this is
more a hardware solution. I
don't think Sun ever got a lot of
interest as you can do almost all of
it with any thin client and a PS 4.0
server.
http://www.sun.com/sunray/sunray2fs/
I like your idea of having this
software based, device and server
independent ( a Vmotion style move of a
session to another server is
very cool). Get that C++ compiler busy
Jim!
On 7/28/06, Jim Kenzig
http://ThinHelp.com <http://thinhelp.com/> wrote:
>
> Remember the Virtual Workplace video
Citrix showed at Iforum about 4 or 5
> years ago? It was very Star Trekkish
with a guy walking around with a little
> portable computer holding a
tele/video conference with people around the
> world. He went from his office, to
his car and then to his home where he
> plugged into a cradle and brought the
conference up on his giant plasma TV.
> They connected people from all over
the world. When the channel got staticy
> and dropped and then came back up, he
went Oh never mind we just switched
> over to a new server.
>
> Ok that was Citrix's vision of access
back then. Any where, any place, and
> any device. Fast forward to 2006. The
CPS 4 package has much of this
> functionality.. session reliability
for example and application isolation so
> apps don't step on each other.
Conferencing built in and more.
>
> Now stay with me here and I will take
you on a visionary dream of mine and
> eureka moment I had last evening in
my sleep. (and yeah this happens all the
> time)
>
> Maybe we are approaching this whole
virtualization thing backwards. Instead
> of virtualizing servers and desktops
I think we should be virtualizing user
> profile sessions.
>
> Here is my dream. You know how VMWare
has that Vmotion stuff where you can
> move a machine over from one physical
server to another and not miss a beat?
> That is pretty awesome stuff. I
started thinking (while I was dreaming of
> course0 why can't someone come up
with a way to have multiple identical
> servers with the same apps loaded on
them and an admin tool that can take a
> users entire logon session
profile(everything they are doing) and move JUST
> THE SESSION with the profile over to
another machine. And then I took it a
> step further. It could be automated
with a tool to monitor users sessions
> and move ones over that are stressing
the CPU over to a less used machine.
> So instead of moving a whole server
or machine over just move the user over.
> This is sort of what happened in the
virtual workplace video.
>
> I'm asking how hard can this be to
do? Put the entire logon into a "virtual
> session profile"..everything the user
is doing. If the users session slows
> down they get a flag that pops up
that Asks if they would like to be moved
> to a less busy server, if they say
yes, it saves their session state, tells
> the user to hang on a sec while it
moves the session profile over to a new
> server and then restores and restarts
the session on the new server. A step
> further...give the user the option to
save their session logon state..apps
> open etc into a "virtual session
profile" so that the could connect back in
> days, weeks or even months later
exactly where they left off. (and it
> wouldn't matter which machine they
connect to) With programs like
> softricity to hold the basic backend
app information something like this
> should be doable. This is not the
same thing as virtual desktops...I want
> virtual SESSION profiles not Desktops!
>
> Such a virtualization method would be
way more useful than virtual machines
> because you could do things like
create a virtual profile with settings that
> would not be changed and use it
across your organization, you could then
> have a flex type of setup that saved
session settings and personal files in
> another home storage folder if
necessary.
> The benefits being you never have to
reboot a server with users on it, you
> can have way more users on a real
server than you can on a virtual server
> and you would have much more control
over users sessions as you could set up
> a system to monitor only the ones you
want. ...ie.. always make sure that
> the Directors virtual profile is sent
to the least busy server. I know some
> of this stuff exists today but this
is the panacea I want. Think it will
> ever happen? I do.
>
>
>
>
>
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