[THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server
- From: "Pardee, Michael P." <MPardee@xxxxxxxx>
- To: "'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:30:02 -0500
Nick, I am going through this exercise right now.
Dell PowerEdge - Dual PIII @ 1.25GHz with 2GB of RAM.
Applications: Office2003 (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, Outlook),
Publisher, Project2003, Visio2003, Reflection2003.
This is a HUGE leap for us from NT4 and Office97, but our current test bed
of 40 users on this box are thrilled. Not just a little happy, but
thrilled.
I am on it all day, every day, and the performance is fantastic. As an
engineer, I want to watch things - everything - when it comes to counters
and performance, but I can't get a good read on this. There are times when
the CPU is over 80% utilization and the memory is running at 2.6GB in use
(2GB physical, remember?) and it is flying along. There are other times
where I don't see counters that are high anywhere but we see slight pauses,
and almost always for everyone at the same time. They are brief, 10-30
seconds, but they are sometimes there. I have ordered another 2GB of RAM
just to watch how 2003 handles it with Terminal Services, but I am more than
a little impressed at this point.
I'm sure it's not perfect, but remember, we are coming from an NT4 world
where our quads with 4GB of RAM can't handle more than 63 users on them
because of registry quota, but that's another story in itself.
This game seems to be all about memory handling, and Windows2003 does it
better than any other MS operating system I have used in the last 18 years,
but at the end of the day the hottest stock tip out there will eventually be
Tscale. We'll probably start bringing it in for testing in the new
environment to see just how far we can really push things.
Hope this helps.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Smith [mailto:nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:43 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server
OK, I know people hate this, and the real answer is; go test it.
However, can anyone give a wild guesstimate of how many concurrent you would
get on a modern server running Windows 2003, with a published desktop and
just MS Office - Word, Excel, Outlook. Assume 2*2.4Ghz Processors, 4GB RAM.
10? 50? 200? 2000? <Grins hopefully>? And what happens if yo go dwon to 2GB
or 1 GB RAM?
NIck
-----Original Message-----
From: Bernd Harzog [mailto:Bernd.Harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx]=20
Sent: 23 February 2004 13:36
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server
A word of warning on the Citrix test kit and anything else that uses =3D
scripts. Unless you know (or can find out) what the mix of usage is for =3D
each application (what is the distribution and intensity of = activities =3D
within Notes), and the mix of usage is across Notes, the Office =3D
applications and SAP, it is going to be very hard to use a test tool to =3D
accurately simulate what is going to happen in your production =3D
environment.
A word of warning about sizing tools offered by any vendor that is =3D
selling anything except for a sizing tool. They are designed to show =3D
their own products in the best light possible. The scripts in the Citrix =3D
test kit exercise a minimum set of functionality across Word, Excel, and =3D
Notepad. A heavy user is defined as someone who types a lot - which =3D
leaves out the question of what happens when someone fires off = a report
=3D in a line of business application. The same thing goes for = any sizing
=3D tool offered by a server vendor - remember the objective of = the tool
is =3D to help that vendor sell servers - not tell you the truth about how
many =3D users their server can support.
There are others here (like Ron and Brian) who have huge amounts of =3D
field experience answering this question - but my answer is to put a =3D
subset of the farm in production with real production users. Only =3D
through this method can you KNOW what is going to happen.
Finally, with respect to how you know when a server is at capacity, let =3D
me issue one other cautionary note. You (IMHO) cannot tell when a server =3D
is at capacity by looking at any utilization metrics (like = CPU %). The =3D
reason for this is that (again IMHO) you cannot model degradation in =3D
responsiveness to users from utilization metrics. You can have a fully =3D
responsive server with a CPU utilization of 100%, = and one that is =3D
totally unusable with a CPU utilization of 20%.
Cheers,
Bernd Harzog
CEO
RTO Software, Inc.
bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx
678-455-5506 x701
www.rtosoft.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Kenzig http://thethin.net =
[mailto:jimkenz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:55 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server
The citrix server test kit from http://www.citrix.com/cdn and the =3D
Terminal server capacity tools at:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techinfo/reskit/tools/hotfixes/tscp
t=3D
-o.
asp
Claudio Rodriquez wrote a little utility for a Pocket/Palm PC at
http://www.cewindows.net/applications/tssizer.htm
Here is an article for 2003
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3D3Da2ae95da-be5=
6
-=3D
4495-
9fb5-e4b7170b33d9&DisplayLang=3D3Den
(will probably wrap, copy it all)
See the MS FAQ
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/community/centers/terminal/te
r=3D
min
al_faq.mspx
Article on Thinclient.net by Steve and Christa
http://www.thinclient.net/technology/Server_Sizing.htm
If it is HP servers and you are registered with Active answers HP has a =3D
tool to size with their servers on a link on
http://activeanswers.compaq.com/ActiveAnswers/Render/1,1027,4825-6-100-2
2=3D
5-1
,00.htm
Older white paper on sizing NT 4.0 and Compaq servers with some =3D
relevence ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/partners/microsoft/infolib/ecg0680698.pdf
Brian Madden had a paper too (and also writes about it in his book I
believe) at brianmadden.com And he wrote a performance tuning one to use
once your server is set up to increase amount of users at
http://www.rtosoft.com/pages/whitepaper_ts_fbm.asp
Regards,
Jim Kenzig
http://thin.net
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Thomas, Jeremy
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 6:32 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] How many users will go on my server
Problem:
I have 2000 users. How many terminal servers do I need.
Servers are W2003, XPe, dual Xeon 2.8, 4Gb RAM All users receive a published
desktop. Standard applications are MS =3D Offic=3D3D e & Lotus Notes, other
applications include SAP.
I need to simulate a typical user load - users using applications in a = =3D
"t=3D3D ypical" way, and automate this. Then, I need to test various =3D
applications=3D3D like Appsense or TScale to see what sort of = improvement
they make on =3D per=3D3D formance.
So:
What can I use to simulate userload of between 40 and 200 users making = =3D
ty=3D3D pical use of our application set?
What criteria should I use to determine that the server is running at = =3D
"fu=3D3D ll" capacity?
What other criteria might I use to fine tune these servers?
How did you do it?
What were your experiences?
What applications might I consider to get the servers running more =3D
effici=3D3D ently?
Regards,
Jeremy Thomas
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