[THIN] [FG-SPAM] RE: Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
- From: "Stanley Watts" <swatts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 08:32:05 -0400
Personally I find the network printers easier to use. We can control
which drivers are used at the queue and then create mappings by
clientname to each printer.
________________________________
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Steve Greenberg
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:29 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
I believe ThinPrint has a CE capable client. This get back to the
earlier discussion- you can setup local printers on an XPe thin client
and you can use UPD. We just did this for a client and it works great,
but again you now have a more complex local config then with a "more
dumber" CE or LINUX device. Also, you can make network printers work
with LINUX and potentially CE devices, but you have to delve into the
details and test it out, find compatible drivers, etc...... in the end
certain things may not do what you need. So is XPe the best choice, or,
a plain old PC? Got to take each situation individually and work through
all the pros and cons......
Steve Greenberg
Thin Client Computing
34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
(602) 432-8649
www.thinclient.net
steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
________________________________
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Carl Stalhood
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:37 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
The biggest issue I encounter with thin clients is printing. Since thin
clients don't support a local printing subsystem, network printers are
required.
Citrix currently requires print drivers to be installed to be able to
connect to network printers. Every environment I encounter that uses
thin clients also has HP drivers installed that cause the Citrix Print
Manager service to hang. It can be very difficult to restrict the
drivers that are installed on the Citrix servers. If I try to map
printers on a customer's existing Windows print server, I frequently
have to build a new print server where I can control what drivers are
specified.
If Citrix ever included a universal print driver for network printers
then thin client printing would be much more manageable.
An advantage of PCs is that I normally look forward to client printing
so I don't have to manage it. It is a lot easier for me to tell the
desktop support team to setup local printers on the PCs than setting up
network printers on Citrix:
* Create print queues
* Create AD security groups
* Install print drivers (test the drivers, restrict the drivers,
etc.)
* Create Citrix policies to map the printers
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of TSguy92 Lan
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:24 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
From all the great responses on this thread it seems to me that the
general message is:
- Going the route of using Thin Clients in an environment should depend
greatly on the factors of:
- The applications (terminal server hosted or not) you need to
support to run
- The user base you need to support
- The amount of change anticipated in your environment over 3-4
years from the time implimentation.
These factors are almost exactly the same type of factors that need to
be considered when looking at designing a new terminal server
implimentation. When a terminal server implimentation starts, typically
there's a "wish list" of applications created that needs to be wittled
down, based on what makes sense in a terminal server hosted solution.
IE - you typically wouldn't opt to run Corel Draw on your terminal
servers as a published application, so you drop that from the list of
hosted applications. The users who need that application get a local
system that can support running it at optimum levels.
Personally, it would take a whole lot of convincing to get me to want to
have users work off of locally installed applications on a WinXPe thin
client. My general rule of thumb being that; If I can support running
all of a workstations applications out of a terminal server farm, then
I'd be looking to replace that workstation with a thin client. Yes, you
can install applications to your WinXPe thinterms, but typically it's a
lot of hassel that you wouldn't have if you had a full windows XP /
vista workstation available.
Of course, with the fact that full tower Dell workstations are so cheap
these days, it's quite an easy thing to turn a full tower system with
Windows XP / Vista into a "thinish" client; which grants you the
benefits of both locked down control of the workstation's "thinness" as
well as a full OS to install local applications too as needed.
-Lan
On 4/2/07, Michael Boggan <mboggan@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I would have to disagree. We have implemented Wyse OS terminals for all
of our cust care offices. We publish a desktop via a small number of
"desktop servers" then from there, using pnagent on the desktop session,
they are given every application they need from across the farm. it
works great. we have had no problems implementing printing, which is
mostly network printers imported into the farm. it has worked great.
and the wyse terminals are cheap and easy to maintenance. instead of
having to have each office keep a staffed IT person to troubleshoot and
work on PCs, they just get a new terminal, and send the defective one
back to us to have replaced. takes less time, less money, and less
knowledge on their end. management has loved it because of less
staffing in the small offices and quicker turn around on the systems
that go out.
also, they like the fact that a user can sit anywhere and do the same
work on the same system they always work on.
Thanks, Michael Boggan
________________________________
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:16:55 -0500
From: msemon@xxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Carl,
Excellent post. I think this covers many of the issues we are seeing
with these thin client devices. We tested
some of the embedded XP devices in and have not been totally satisfied.
The local printing problem and inability
to install programs locally has led us to recommend installing PC's for
their needs.
Mike
________________________________
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Carl Stalhood
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:43 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
Here is my rant against thin clients. I produced this list based on the
perspective of somebody that has to manage and support the Presentation
Server infrastructure.
Thin Clients vs. PCs
The ideal end-user device, where full Citrix functionality is possible
with maximum flexibility and minimum administrative burden, is a Windows
based PC (Windows XP or above preferred). The following is key
functionality of a Windows based PC client device when used with a
Citrix Presentation Server architecture:
* Full ICA Functionality including SpeedScreen Multimedia
Acceleration. New ICA functionality is achieved by simply upgrading the
ICA client to the latest version.
* Full support of client printing with the Universal Print
Driver on the Citrix Presentation Servers. This eliminates needing to
install print drivers on the Citrix Presentation Servers and eliminates
needing to configure Citrix Policies or complicated scripting to map
printers at logon. Essentially, all printing functionality is offloaded
to the client.
* Flexibility to run local applications if it is not cost
advantageous to publish an application from Citrix Presentation Server.
When a client device runs both local apps and Citrix published apps,
Choice Solutions refers to the device as a hybrid client. The Citrix
PNAgent ICA Client provides seamless integration of Citrix published
applications into the PC's Start Menu and Desktop meaning that users use
one method to launch both local applications and Citrix published
applications.
Thin Clients are advantageous for shop floors, where moving parts are
more susceptible to failure, and kiosks, where a minimal device improves
security. For other cases, thin clients might seem attractive for their
lower initial cost but there are several reasons to reconsider using
them:
* The ICA client running on a thin client is not fully featured.
The only thin client OS that supports full ICA client functionality is
Embedded XP. Some features missing from other thin clients are Universal
Print Driver v3 (the new one in Citrix Presentation Server 4) and
SpeedScreen Multimedia Acceleration (using client resources to play
media files and streaming media resulting in user experience identical
to playing the media on the PC).
* Most thin clients lack client printing requiring network
printers to be configured on the Citrix Presentation Servers.
Client printing is ideal because the new Universal Print Driver (UPD)
does not require print drivers to be loaded on the Citrix Presentation
Servers. Without client printing, network printers are required to be
mapped within an ICA session. This consists of mapping the printer
(using a script or Citrix Policies) and loading print drivers on the
Presentation Servers. Network printers complicate the printing
architecture of a Citrix Presentation Server architecture.
If you must implement network printers for thin client printing support,
ensure that the drivers installed on the Citrix Presentation Servers are
all included with Windows. Do NOT install drivers downloaded from the
printer vendor's website. Also, if installing Windows 2003 x64 on the
Presentation Servers, ensure that all print drivers are 64-bit.
Thin clients with the Embedded XP OS do support client printers.
However, most print drivers are not included with the Embedded XP OS
requiring the administrator to install the drivers on the thin client.
Also, not all drivers will successfully install on the Embedded XP thin
client due to functionality removed from the Embedded XP OS to allow it
to fit on the flash drive.
* Most thin clients do not support locally installed
applications.
It is rare to see a Citrix Presentation Server implementation where all
applications are published from Citrix Presentation Servers. The primary
reason to not install an application on Presentation Server is lack of
tangible benefits as compared to the cost of integrating the
application. Remember, every application installed on a Citrix
Presentation Server farm must go through an extensive testing,
configuration, stress loading, and documentation process and it is not
cost effective to send an application used by a small number of users
through this process.
Embedded XP thin clients do support locally installed applications with
several caveats. The flash drive in these thin clients is typically 512
MB or 1 GB in size resulting in an inability to install large
applications. Larger flash drives also increase the price of the thin
client putting it in the realm of PC pricing.
While the Embedded XP OS is based on Windows XP, it is a subset of that
OS. Some applications might require more of Windows XP than is typically
available on an Embedded XP thin client.
* Thin clients possess sub-par graphics capability as compared
to today's low end PCs.
One method for reducing costs in thin clients is to skimp on the
graphics. This results in smaller screen resolutions, lower color depth,
and noticeably slower screen updates. Before buying a particular thin
client, let some users try it to determine if the graphics performance
is acceptable.
* PNAgent will only run on Embedded XP thin clients.
PNAgent is the preferred method of accessing published applications from
a client device because it is centrally administered and provides
seamless integration with the local desktop (shortcuts are placed on the
Start Menu, Desktop, and in the system tray). PNAgent can be installed
and used from Embedded XP thin clients only.
For other types of thin clients, consider publishing a desktop with the
common Start Menu program groups hidden (use Group Policy to do this)
and run PNAgent within that published desktop. PNAgent will display or
not display application shortcuts within the published desktop based on
a user's group membership. While this is easy to setup, it does provide
an additional access method that must be maintained.
* Centralized management of thin clients is proprietary to the
thin client vendor.
Every thin client vendor offers a software solution for management of
their thin clients. This management software typically only works with a
specific vendor's thin clients. Also, the management software does not
integrate with other PC management software, like Microsoft SMS, so you
must maintain an additional client device management infrastructure.
* Embedded XP thin clients need to be managed just like a PC.
Since most PC functionality is built into Embedded XP thin clients,
including the ability to catch a virus, these thin clients should be
managed just like a PC, resulting in increased management costs for this
particular class of thin clients. Some Embedded XP thin client vendors
offer antivirus and firewall protection for their Embedded XP thin
clients.
A common method of managing Embedded XP thin clients is to join it to a
Windows domain so the thin client can receive group policies, login
scripts, mapped printers, etc. Another advantage of joining the domain
is that the credentials a user uses to log in to the thin client can be
passed through the PNAgent client eliminating the second logon.
However, the Write Filter, which prevents changes to the flash disk,
included with these thin clients prevents the thin clients from storing
changed domain workstation passwords. Either the Write Filter must be
disabled or the password changing must be disabled. If the Write Filter
is disabled, there is potential for the user to break the system
requiring a thin client image to be reloaded. Preventing the workstation
password from changing results in reduced network security. The
DisablePasswordChange registry key will prevent the thin client from
changing its domain password.
* All upgrades and support are offered only by the thin client
vendor.
Citrix Support cannot provide thin client specific assistance. If an
issue is discovered on a thin client that cannot be reproduced on a PC,
the thin client vendor must be contacted for support.
As Citrix releases new versions of the ICA Clients, you must wait for
the thin client vendor to release an image that includes the newer
versions. This could result in a discrepancy in features and bug fixes
between the PCs and the thin clients.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Matt Kosht
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 8:32 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Recommendations for Thin client devices
I read this recently. A very good discussion of the relevance of these
devices vs. cheap PC's.
http://www.brianmadden.com/content/content.asp?ID=666
SBC SITES ONLY GOOGLE SEARCH: http://www.F1U.com <http://www.f1u.com/>
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