[THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
- From: Cláudio Rodrigues <Claudio.Rodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:08:32 -0400
I do not understand. If the load balancer measures the real time load and
also its history, it knows for sure, no matter at what point in time, how
the load is on the server. So if these 10 users are ok at 8:00am but are
bringing the server down to its knees at 12:00pm, the load balancer KNOWS
that and therefore will NOT send more users to this server.
But if what you want is to be able to at that point automatically move some
of these users in REAL TIME to another server while keeping the session
running, then you will need Citrix MetaFrame Presentation Server 2010, to be
released in 6 years from now after they acquire VMWare. :-) (this is
currently possible using VMWare and some of their latest greatest stuff)
Seriously I am not sure what you are trying to achieve and where the problem
is.
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Services
http://www.terminal-services.net
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ron Jameson
Sent: August 27, 2004 12:59 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
the deeper I get into this the more I feel resource LB will not help alone.
The problem I am seeing with this particular setup was when the users are
already on - they will bring the server down to a crawl during heavy usage.
So if those 10 users were on a single TS - they will be stuck on that
regardless and I will not be any better off. Having TS farms is great for
the average user in a company with 500 users for example - RLB or NLB works
as planned for it only looks at predictable signs of load (cpu, network etc)
and not the unpredictable signs of load on a particular program during the
course of the day.
This will boil down to finding the max users this TS can handle when running
the accounting program and scale from there. How to scale is my turning
point now and I have it down to some choices.
A) Determine if changing from a dual 2.5ghz xeon to quad will benefit and
the ROI is better than a second server. (we have a dell PE6650 with only
2CPU's - quad capable)
B) Duplicate my TS and manually split my users knowing which users are my
power users and configure their machines to auto login to the proper TS
(splitting it down the middle).
C) (this will only work if the user opens/closed applications and not camp
out in them) Convert to published applications (either combo of
wsgateway/wsportal or tarantella) & with shortcuts to the desktop. In this
I see the LB working at the application level to direct to the least loaded
TS. This will still not guarantee a slowdown 100% of the time if the users
run the published apps and under low load - can theoretically end up all on
the same TS anyhow. Then as they remain on the same TS - they could bring
it down during their processing.
Side notes - we have tried CPU throttlers (a free one and relevos), RTScale
- but found unpredictable behavior and odd side effects on this applications
performance. Not enough to prove it was working.
Ron Jameson
Hamlin Technologies
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Cláudio Rodrigues
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:08 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
A resource based load balancer like WTSGateway Pro, queries the TSs
constantly and keeping history of all this information (CPU, Mem
Utilization, Number of Connected users) and based on that decides which TS
gets the next session.
So you may endup with the 10 heavy users in one machine and 35 light users
on the other TS as the load put on the system by the 10 heavy users is equal
the 35 light ones. NLB does not handle or cares about the actual load on the
servers.
Citrix and Tarantella, as they are resource based, actually do, exactly as
WTSGateway Pro.
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Services http://www.terminal-services.net
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ron Jameson
Sent: August 26, 2004 11:49 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
My only problem...is when 50 users login in the morning and the first 10 are
the heavy pounders - with Microsoft's native NLB on Win2k3 - is this only
set for Network LB and not resource based? I am trying to envision what
would happen is if native NLB looks at the sever and see's 25 users on, then
it redirects the next 25 to the next in the cluster, my first group of users
on the TS will cripple it because they are the ones using the heavy hitting
accounting program.
I have not looked too deep into MS NLB and only just starting
looking/testing tarantella, soon WSGatwayPro - but with a 2-3 server
Win2k3 farm of native terminal services - how can software know to put
balanced load when that load gets worse throughout the day by groups of
users who login to the TS and live in it all day. I am almost thinking
going primitive by choosing which users go to what server (i.e.
accounting group1 goes to TS1, accounting group2 goes to TS2). I know it is
crude - but it appears that may be my only way (other than published apps).
Published apps make sense in how I need it to be handled - I just need to
see how the programs work if published from within the TS session.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Jeff Malczewski
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:20 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
Well, remember the 7 Ps...
So, this server SHOULD be advanced server (assuming 2k here), right?
Easy. Change the IP on the existing server to something else. Then, build
a second server with the identical apps on it, and then start an NLB group
with the built-in WLBS. For the "cluster" address, use the address that the
first server was using. This way, you don't have to change any of the
clients.
:)
HTH,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Jameson [mailto:rjameson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:12 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Dumb Question about Load balancing
It's late, been a long day - but how to you LB a stressed out single
terminal server when users login to the TS and work completely in the
session all day (i.e. non-published apps) and the load increases as the
users run applications that are intense? The only way a LB would work here
is if they logout/in again and get redirected to a different server due to
the first being loaded? I ask this before I test Claudio's Gateway pro but
I have a feeling in order to LB - you need to convert your whole setup to
published applications with a small 2+ server farm.
What are companies doing that have an entire business run on TS but then
outgrow it's capacity? Do they undo all their work and move to published
apps (citrix or tarantella) or do they just install a second TS and change
the RDP shortcut on half the company to go to a different TS? We are not
talking about 500+ users but only under 50 but applications that beat the
TS.
Just curious for we have this setup where the desktop is tuned and
controlled by GPO & scripts so I do not want to switch the setup to have
applications published to a local desktop. Or do you/can you publish to a
TS session desktop thus maintaining the controlled TS session? I think this
would be as if a TS session on TS1 launches a published app and if TS1 is
ok, it runs it local but if it is overloaded - it launches to TS2.
Thoughts?
Ron Jameson
Hamlin Technologies
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