[THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
- From: "Ron Jameson" <rjameson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 23:59:02 -0500
the deeper I get into this the more I feel resource LB will not help alone.
The problem I am seeing with this particular setup was when the users are
already on - they will bring the server down to a crawl during heavy usage. So
if those 10 users were on a single TS - they will be stuck on that regardless
and I will not be any better off. Having TS farms is great for the average
user in a company with 500 users for example - RLB or NLB works as planned for
it only looks at predictable signs of load (cpu, network etc) and not the
unpredictable signs of load on a particular program during the course of the
day.
This will boil down to finding the max users this TS can handle when running
the accounting program and scale from there. How to scale is my turning point
now and I have it down to some choices.
A) Determine if changing from a dual 2.5ghz xeon to quad will benefit and the
ROI is better than a second server. (we have a dell PE6650 with only 2CPU's -
quad capable)
B) Duplicate my TS and manually split my users knowing which users are my power
users and configure their machines to auto login to the proper TS (splitting it
down the middle).
C) (this will only work if the user opens/closed applications and not camp out
in them) Convert to published applications (either combo of wsgateway/wsportal
or tarantella) & with shortcuts to the desktop. In this I see the LB working
at the application level to direct to the least loaded TS. This will still not
guarantee a slowdown 100% of the time if the users run the published apps and
under low load - can theoretically end up all on the same TS anyhow. Then as
they remain on the same TS - they could bring it down during their processing.
Side notes - we have tried CPU throttlers (a free one and relevos), RTScale -
but found unpredictable behavior and odd side effects on this applications
performance. Not enough to prove it was working.
Ron Jameson
Hamlin Technologies
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Cláudio Rodrigues
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:08 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
A resource based load balancer like WTSGateway Pro, queries the TSs constantly
and keeping history of all this information (CPU, Mem Utilization, Number of
Connected users) and based on that decides which TS gets the next session.
So you may endup with the 10 heavy users in one machine and 35 light users on
the other TS as the load put on the system by the 10 heavy users is equal the
35 light ones. NLB does not handle or cares about the actual load on the
servers.
Citrix and Tarantella, as they are resource based, actually do, exactly as
WTSGateway Pro.
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Services http://www.terminal-services.net
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Ron Jameson
Sent: August 26, 2004 11:49 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
My only problem...is when 50 users login in the morning and the first 10 are
the heavy pounders - with Microsoft's native NLB on Win2k3 - is this only set
for Network LB and not resource based? I am trying to envision what would
happen is if native NLB looks at the sever and see's 25 users on, then it
redirects the next 25 to the next in the cluster, my first group of users on
the TS will cripple it because they are the ones using the heavy hitting
accounting program.
I have not looked too deep into MS NLB and only just starting looking/testing
tarantella, soon WSGatwayPro - but with a 2-3 server
Win2k3 farm of native terminal services - how can software know to put balanced
load when that load gets worse throughout the day by groups of users who login
to the TS and live in it all day. I am almost thinking going primitive by
choosing which users go to what server (i.e.
accounting group1 goes to TS1, accounting group2 goes to TS2). I know it is
crude - but it appears that may be my only way (other than published apps).
Published apps make sense in how I need it to be handled - I just need to see
how the programs work if published from within the TS session.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Jeff Malczewski
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:20 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Re: Dumb Question about Load balancing
Well, remember the 7 Ps...
So, this server SHOULD be advanced server (assuming 2k here), right?
Easy. Change the IP on the existing server to something else. Then, build a
second server with the identical apps on it, and then start an NLB group with
the built-in WLBS. For the "cluster" address, use the address that the first
server was using. This way, you don't have to change any of the clients.
:)
HTH,
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Jameson [mailto:rjameson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 7:12 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Dumb Question about Load balancing
It's late, been a long day - but how to you LB a stressed out single terminal
server when users login to the TS and work completely in the session all day
(i.e. non-published apps) and the load increases as the users run applications
that are intense? The only way a LB would work here is if they logout/in again
and get redirected to a different server due to the first being loaded? I ask
this before I test Claudio's Gateway pro but I have a feeling in order to LB -
you need to convert your whole setup to published applications with a small 2+
server farm.
What are companies doing that have an entire business run on TS but then
outgrow it's capacity? Do they undo all their work and move to published apps
(citrix or tarantella) or do they just install a second TS and change the RDP
shortcut on half the company to go to a different TS? We are not talking about
500+ users but only under 50 but applications that beat the TS.
Just curious for we have this setup where the desktop is tuned and controlled
by GPO & scripts so I do not want to switch the setup to have applications
published to a local desktop. Or do you/can you publish to a TS session
desktop thus maintaining the controlled TS session? I think this would be as
if a TS session on TS1 launches a published app and if TS1 is ok, it runs it
local but if it is overloaded - it launches to TS2.
Thoughts?
Ron Jameson
Hamlin Technologies
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