Rick, We have come to same exact conclusions in our practice. It can be summarized by saying that traditional SBC has all the benefits of shared computing - Efficiency and Centralization. VDI has the traditional benefits of the PC - Compatibility and Personalization/Familiarity. Like you, we have accomplished a very high level of application integration success with SBC in our client base and all the benefits have been demonstrable. We have also found though that the skill set and approach is different and this can lead to situations where the maintenance and upgrade of the environment becomes too complicated for the staff IT people. So you have a spectrum from TS to VDI: Efficiency of HW/SW with Skills Complexity <-------> Compatibility/Familiarity, ease with inefficient SW/HW To me the main question right now is what is the scale of the inefficiency on the VDI? Is it just a few extra servers for most environments or even a doubling or tripling of hardware and server footprints? Licensing costs overall? Maintaining a client machines as well as a VDI machine? Will the users really accept their entire environment running over a remote protocol versus processing on a local OS and video card? (this is something that most end users pick up on right away) Otherwise I do believe the time is right for VDI (which needs a better name by the way) but how much of the workforce will it really apply to? I think, like SBC, VDI will show great promise but end up being just another option in the spectrum, although a valuable one, for some percentage of the user base that can directly benefit from it. The good news, as Rick alluded to, is that VDI instances still need to print, they still need a Windows profile, they still apps to install and run correctly, they still need to be accessed remotely and secured so I don't think us SBC dinosaurs will go extinct just yet... Steve Greenberg Thin Client Computing 34522 N. Scottsdale Rd D8453 Scottsdale, AZ 85266 (602) 432-8649 www.thinclient.net steveg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx _____ From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rick Mack Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:11 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: A definitive registry information source? Hi Jim, I used to be a terminal server (TS) bigot too because I could get almost any application going on TS. I'd spend days and nights finding out how applications worked, and how to modify the application or environment to make it happy. But not everyone has the skill, experience, time, tenacity or stupidity to do that. I did it because it was fun and I've learned an incredible amount of stuff. Other people are sensible and have a real life :-) Things are a lot easier than they used to be. Application verifiers, the Microsoft Standard user analyser, the new TS application compatibility analyzer and application isolation and streaming have made the whole process of porting applications to TS a lot easier. But it's still not as easy as installing an application on a Windows XP desktop and unfortunately the major skill set in a lot of organizations resides in the desktop management team. You know them, they're the people who reboot a TS server with 50 users logged on because the spooler has stopped. They often just can't or won't come to grips with TS and actively hate it. They're the ones that have made Citrix a dirty word in a lot of organizations. Anyway, lets get down to the real stuff. Server based computing (SBC) is about delivering a remote GUI to users while running the users' "virtual" desktops or applications in the data center. Remote doesn't necessarity mean far away, just that the desktop or applications aren't running on the device in front of the end user. SBC coupled with thin clients is widely acknowledged as a brilliant way to keep desktop management costs in check, and to get away from the 2-3 yearly desktop refresh cycle. So if that's such a good idea, why do so many people hate TS? Because it's different, and it's often just too hard. It needs different skill sets, more experience and a much better understanding of how everything hangs together. The people who do TS well are the IT equivalent of rocket scientists. SBC used to be solely about TS, but not any more. We've now got all sorts of ways to give users remote access to their virtual desktops and applications. We have user session isolation (TS), operating system partitioning (Virtuozzo), virtual machines (VMware, Virtual Iron, Xen, Hyper-V etc) and even blade PCs (DDI) that weakly qualify under the SBC blanket because they're racked machines running in a data center. That's ignoring stuff like VWware ACE and Moka5 where the difference between "real" and virtual user sessions is just too vague. So we've got a lot of different alternatives for delivering virtual desktops, but which one is THE best way to do things? Let's look at our SBC options. At one extreme, if you've got a lot (200+) of interesting (challenging/frustrating etc) applications, then the implemetation costs you incur to get all those applications going on TS can be horrendous. And then along comes something like Cisco Presence that won't run multi-user at all. Oh, and the corporate application tha the CEO loves that is having problems and isn't supported on TS. So what do we do? Go back to fat clients for some of the users? At the other extreme DDI is brilliant from the viewpoint that you can run anything on a blade PC, even stuff like AutoCAD with 3D rendering etc. Any super-heavy resource hungry application can be accomodated and we're still using a thin client in front of the user. But the cost of having a thin client AND a blade PC for every user is pretty horrendous. Then there's VDI which is kind of a compromise. The number of user virtual machines you can support on a given host is a lot less than TS but VDI on virtual machines hosted on VMware etc will run almost any application that will run on a desktop. No file sharing and locking issues, no problems with privileges, no support issues. If you're crazy enough (which I hope no-one is) you can even let your users be local administrators. If I use Virtuozzo for VDI as an "intermediate" VDI solution, it's not quite as "good" as a windows XP virtual machine. We're still running on Windows Server 2003, but the user session isolation is heaps better than TS and the number of users I can host on a server is nearly as good as TS. That's "VDI" at almost the same hardware cost as TS. So we've got a lot of alternatives that are right for different reasons. Whever we quoted to do a fat client to terminal server migration project, we used to go nuts trying to estimate how long it would take to port all a customer's applications to TS, and worry like heck that we didn't cover everything, and that some of them wouldn't port at all. With VDI/DDI as a backstop, and particularly if you can publish seamless applications via VDI (did I mention Provision :-)), I can run the bulk of my applications and desktops on TS, and silo the applications that don't run or aren't supported on TS on my VDI machines. Or if users have to run a huge java application that uses several gigabytes of RAM, I can throw in a few blade PCs. In an ideal world we would use each technology as is most appropriate to end up with the best possible mix. Use TS for easy apps and lowest cost, VDI for the apps that need a single-user desktop environment, and DDI for the stuff that doesn't belong on a server. Imagine an SBC/thin client environment where everything works, where it's easy to put everything together and it's the most cost effective solution you can offer. Then there's the real world. Getting applications to run acceptably on TS can be a huge job with huge risks whereas doing the same thing on virtual machines is dead easy with minimal risk. Whether we like it or not there have been enough well publicised failed TS implementations that the perceived risk is unacceptable for many organisations. What a decision for a CTO, a defined high hardware cost with very tight implementation costs at a minimal risk, or a lower hardware cost with undefined, possibly huge implementation costs and an equally huge risk. P2V a standard SOE machine and you're nearly there with VDI, ingnoring all the stuff you should do to get decent scalability. And we can't forget the basic fact that for people who are used to managing desktops, VDI doesn't require much of a change of mindset whereas TS does. People can cope with the idea of virtual machines because you can manage them the same way you always have, and aside from the VMware etc infrastructure, nothing has to change very much. It's this scenario that means people will often opt for VDI instead of TS when they have a requirement for remote access, simplicity and the cost saving associated with thin clients. But it's not all bad news. VDI is still SBC, and where are the SBC experts, the people that know about thin clients, profile management, lockdown, tuning etc, all that stuff that makes VDI even more viable? That's us. We've only just begun to make a difference. regards, Rick -- Ulrich Mack Quest Software Provision Networks Division regards, Rick On 5/6/08, Jim Kenzig < <mailto:jkenzig@xxxxxxxxx> jkenzig@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Yes but if I did VDI I would need about 75 servers versus the 8 I currently use with TS, not to mention the additional VECD licenses and Vista licenses that must be purchased on the workstations. At 15k a piece for the servers then that is another 850,000 addittional. It doesn't add up. I'd just as soon as buy them all laptops, ; ) Jim On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Joe Shonk < <mailto:joe.shonk@xxxxxxxxx> joe.shonk@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Think of it this way Jim. 1000 users x 450 for a Presentation Server Enterprise License will cost $450,000 dollars. Joedee