[THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
- From: "Andrew Wood" <andrew.wood@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:06:21 +0100
Is it - just memory? Thats the thing - what's the justification for going
x64? Whats the business driver for migrating to a new platform - just
memory? Why not implement a third party memory management app to better
manange the memory you've got?
I had the view of x64 being utilised to allow more users per server
(utilising the increased memory, performance improvements in the OS etc),
which would ultimately mean less devices. This would mean that the
investment in the new technology should be offset by the reduced
maintenance/hosting costs. I'd need fewer servers to support the same amount
of users. But at the moment projects I've been working on have had
relatively few servers, or a high number of apps. So, its been difficult to
justify the development time without, say, introducing a mixed farm of
x64/x32.
It'd be interesting to know what people's drivers are for taking up the
technology?
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Tim Mangan
Sent: 09 June 2006 15:29
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
This is why you would add in more ram in the 64-bt server. The purpose of
going 64-bit is so that you can go above 4GB of memory, without the more
memory you are taking the penalty of a larger OS footprint without giving
the OS more PTEs and fiel cache to work with (possibly even less). You
should be looking for a test with 8GB of ram on the x64 server.
tim
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:22 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
Just to follow this up I got hold of the slidedeck Benny did - my notes not
exactly the same as what Bnny had [damn it being *Pub*forum :( ]
Benny did some analysis testing with 64 bit comparing dual cores & 4GB ram ,
32 bit servers came out better (200 active session vs 159). With 4 cores you
got 319 sessions (win32) vs 171 for x64 - it was only when you added HT that
x64 got up to 322. So raw test analysis - not that impressive.
However, (and er... its at this point I must have been writing down what was
said) in a 'reality check' with a more common application profile (office,
notes, couple of java apps) - x64 for a single dual core xeon gave @ +25%
more users. It was more for 2xDual cores.
He did stress that the migration is not easy - incompatibilities will not
just be drives, but system tools, installation routines (some of which can
be 16bit) and internal scripts modifying the system files and registry) can
all cause problems.
Benny's suggestion was to try and get used to the technology, you'll need
some time to get comfortable with it. From his findings, its mine that its
not yet ready for production.
hope this helps.
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: 09 June 2006 09:55
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
Alan,
Look hard at the performance figures - there are some instances where there
are actually *lower* numbers when migrating to x64 - I'll see if I can get
my hands on a copy of the presentation :)
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Hutchinson, Alan
Sent: 08 June 2006 17:57
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
Thanks for that Andrew - one of my motives for looking at 64 bit (apart from
the technical challenge) is that once we get an environment up and running
smoothly here we tend not to change it for a couple of years or so (except
for the usual patches and supplier software upgrades). By that time I'll be
having problems with not having gone 64 bit and virtually no experience of
it. I am resigned to running mainly 32 bits apps at the moment and have read
of the performance hit of running wow64 so I certainly won't be selling it
as a way of reducing the overall estate.
I've had a quick look at the pubforum web site and can only find "Citrix
Metaframe ala 64 bit - what does it give us"
http://www.pubforum.net/vip/PubForum_x64_Citrix.ppt#259,1,64 bit
Presentation Server
by Simon Frost from Citrix. Like you said I'm not sure I believe the
scalability figures given here either.
At the moment I'm leaning heavily towards a simultaneous 32 and 64 bit build
and see what breaks first - as I said above I'd like to get my hands dirty
with this whilst I've got the opportunity.
Thanks for your input - really useful.
Regards,
Alan.
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Andrew Wood
Sent: 08 June 2006 15:09
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
Alan,
Bernhard Tritsch did great presentation on 64 bit for TS at the last
pubforum.
iirc the findings were essentially that the 64 bit environment didn't really
offer any additional benefit at present - in fact there could be more effort
involved in being an early adopter almost without gain. Issues identified
included getting device drivers for printers, and other hardware, anti-virus
support wasn't available from all vendors. He highlighted the fact that a
lot of existing apps are going to have to run in the windows on windows
emulation to allow the fact that they're 32 bit apps. You obviously can't
have anything older - 16bit apps won't run. This wow functionality for many
apps increased resource consumption. There were issues with the fact that
they've messed around with the system32/program files directories that can
lead to some applications not working correctly and being cumbersome to
install or not working at all.
More importantly, he load tested the same desktop app suite in a 32 and 64
bit environment. While the 64 bit environment could allow more sessions to
be created the apps in those (extra) sessions did not work well and were
very unreliable. Getting a user count that was reliable meant that you were
hitting about the same user count as with win32. He showed that the testing
M$ did to get the large amount of sessions working was performed over a
large amount of time - when you tried to get many users on in a short time
the environment did not hold up as well.
I wish I had a copy of the powerpoint :( it was a very compelling argument
to sitting tight until more apps were available natively on the x64
platform.
hth
_____
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Michael Pardee
Sent: 08 June 2006 14:37
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: 64 bit experience - repost
very close here. As we build our new PS4 Farm I challenged the team to do
as much with the 64 bit version as possible. I think we are just rolling.
I'll report back anything we find.
On 6/8/06, Hutchinson, Alan <Alan.Hutchinson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
No takers? I was hoping to provoke some discussion - either I'm way
behind the times and evrybody is using this or (and I can't believe
this) I'm slightly ahead of the game, or everybody has got one in their
labs and is keeping quiet ..........
Regards,
Alan.
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ] On
Behalf Of Hutchinson, Alan
Sent: 07 June 2006 16:17
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] 64 bit experience
Well, as far as I can see this hasn't been aired for a couple of months
so I'm wondering what the experience is out there. I have the
opportunity for a completely new build on a new infrastructure and am
toying with a simultaneous 32 and 64 PS server build to see how it goes.
I've seen the following :
CTX105744 - but this is dated October last year and can't immediately
see any updates to this and the only thing that puts me off under
functionality not supported is 'Oracle' without any further explanation.
KB282423 - again a few months old. The bits that concern me with this
one relate to MDAC (but on re-reading may not be an issue), and '64 bit
I.E. cannot load 32-bit ActiveX controls' - which may be the killer.
I was encouraged by Brian Maddens article
http://www.brianmadden.com/content/content.asp?id=518 about 'dropping' a
64 bit PS server into an existing 32 farm. Although long term I don't
particularly fancy running a mixed farm.
Thoughts, discussions, opinions, real experience please.
Regards,
Alan.
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Michael Pardee
www.blindsquirrel.org
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