[texbirds] Re: ELTE; location issue; falsification and record committee
- From: MBB22222@xxxxxxx
- To: texbirds@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2013 02:41:52 -0400 (EDT)
WOW (I truly very rarely use this word) - I would never suspect that
anybody on Texbirds would accuse somebody here of falsification of photos or
records or thought that there are members here who would do so. How wrong I
was. At least we have some people here that have nothing better to do but try
to build scenarios for such things. When after reading these accusations
from a few members I think that they do not have great imagination. It would
be more fun for somebody who is able to do something like that to post fake
pin point location and photo from other location and/or taken at different
date. And then watch the mob of twitchers running there. Am I giving these
with sick minds some idea? And why do not pick a bird new to Texas or even
North America? More twitchers running from all over the country.
So great, now I am accused of fabricating the record; ROLF. With many
digital experts offering expert opinions on 0s and 1s - some even already
learned how to remove dust from the image. Followed by detective who has
experience as well - presented not long time ago kitsch of digitally enhanced
photo and admit to that only after somebody pointed this directly. Well ..
I will not comment on very young man comments who was the first to do so;
maybe after a beer or two (perhaps one or two too many; and many years left
to learn about birds and few other thinks that he might not even comprehend
yet) but I will comment on Fred Collins suggestions only because he, or
more precisely behavior of people from his birding bus tour are one perfect
example and one of the major reasons why I did not disclose the ELTE
location. I never thought about posting about this incident but so many people
want to know my reasons behind my decision. Perhaps you can thank Fred
Collins (who failed to keep herd under control; and no I do not have any hard
feelings against him; seems to be a nice person; I say that even that I feel
that he holds something against me and try to stress it out every time he
got a chance) and others for that. I hope he remembers when a few months ago
(on April 12) he brought a busload of âbirdersâ (I did not count them, 40?
- OK checked on eBird: 32
http://ebird.org/ebird/tx/view/checklist?subID=S13724306 ) to Rollover Pass.
Public place were everybody has equal rights
there. But many people from his group behave interestedly. I was there to
check on Least Terns. Sitting in my car close to the water line (perhaps
20-30 feet away) for some time I was making interesting (to me) notes. One
male just started to keep feeding a female bringing a fish every few minutes.
I wanted to know how many fishes he will bring and for how long he will
keep bringing them. Thanks to several âbirdersâ from the bus I lost the
opportunity. Not only mob did not pay any attention that my car was parked on
the side not blocking any access and I clearly was taking photographs a few
of them walk and stood for about HALF HOUR between my lens and the edge of
water. As they already scared away all birds I had nothing else to do but
just wait for them to leave. How I know it was half hour - because I took
many photos of them including video as well; all with these funny dog tags
attached. So I do have well documented record and trust me you do not want me
to post these photos and video clips on the youtube â¦
Perhaps I could falsified a video as well? At 60 frames per second?
This is not an isolated incident, more than once I had twitchers running
with tripods and scopes in the front of my car when seeing me photographing
resting group of birds only to find out that all birds were very common.
Walking away after a few minutes with this funny face. But damage was done
every time - birds either flew away or stopped doing what I was interested to
watch. Well ⦠public place. I try mostly to visit secluded places never
visited by birders/photographers but also need to check a few popular spots
from time to time, and pay price for doing that. Sorry but there is no way I
would disclose locations that are still virgin or even popular spots that
have interesting birds (no, I do not care about rarities) were I am
observing birds at any given time period.
I also witnessed several chases in the past and had to leave those places
immediately as I was afraid to be trampled by running mob. What always
shocked me was that most people looked like normal, well behaving citizens
during their every day lives. Chase after a new tick transformed them into
demons for a few hours. Sort of zombie thing but much faster and quicker and
maybe more danger (mean). BTW I am sure that many twitchers have they list
stretched. So often some post wrong IDs and perhaps good example when I asked
once for ID opinion on one bird I got 5 (yes FIVE) different options to
choose from. It is just a fantasy world. I learned long time ago that if I
have strong interest in something I can only depend on myself. If I do not
learn to ID some birds I am working on - forget it - will stay in dark
forever. BTW one thing that bother me a lot is that it became popular to ask
people to âtryâ ID bird before one post a photo and ask for help. These
comments are very discouraging and I would be surprised if twitchers are not
loosing many rarity records by doing that. Even I might had some but they are
buried in photos in forgotten folders as I see no reason to beg for an ID,
hear some insulting comments and end up in dark anyway. Not to mention that
I do not have any interest in those birds anyway than why I should try to
ID them and never be sure if I am right or wrong on the top of it. Just
remember that every time you see the case when expert opinions are divided,
some or all experts are wrong.
There is one more thing twitchers should realize. Listers vs.
photographers. Twitchers have to announce their discoveries as fast as possible
or
somebody else can beat them in their âfindâ. Having âwitnessesâ that
saw the
bird later make their case âstrongerâ (many just see what they want to
see). On the other hand photographers (but not birder who take photos) have
absolutely no need to tell the whole world about anything they saw. Some like
to come back and repeat the photo session. Finding on the next day line
with scopes on tripods is not exactly what would make them happy. Even if
photographer found the bird it will already became twitchersâ property and
twitchers are even able to physically attack the photographer. We already had
one confession here, on Texbirds, when one was very proud of his behavior
and wrote the story how he was kicking photographerâs tripod with camera
mounted on it. Perhaps if this photographer would found a rarity on that or
next day it would be his expected responsibility to send a text message to
the kicker during the next minute after he found it. Keep dreaming.
I always stress out that I am neither, not a birder nor a photographer.
Camera is my working tool. But I am more photographer than birder if given
choice just between these two. I stopped posted my best photos long time ago
as I found that some of them brought more bad than good to bird protection
(so forget ego thing; and not a right place here to show it). I also do not
compete on fora - if one wants to compete I recommend to send your good
photo (photos if one thinks he/she took more than one) to many available
competitions around the world and let the true experts to judge them. Trust me
on that one - opinions of your girlfriend, aunt or grandma, or even buddies
on forum are usually quite worthless.
But lets go back to Upper Texas Coast Elegant Tern (so far practically
everybody agreed on the ID) and try to explain a few things. I posted this bird
on another forum as I wanted to hear if somebody with knowledge has
anything against my ID. Texbirds became very ID unfriendly, to say it mild,
but I
still posted here not to ask for confirmation but rather just to bring
awareness that one should be careful when looking at Royal Tern flock (and
individual birds as well) and what to look for (of course some will still say
that this is not educational without pin point location given - I think
otherwise). In my wildest dreams I would not imagine that tern can bring so
much attention as normally nobody even try to discuss terns here despite the
fact that my âfeelingâ is that this is one of the most misidentified
family of birds in Texas and eBird records are very often wrong. So people do
not care to learn properly ID terns in general but will chase one because it
is a new tick. To me this is one sick approach. As is to have pin point
location to learn about any bird from any photo. Lets call it by true name -
chasers are demanding birds to be brought to them on the silver plate. I
always hear that exercise is healthy and helps to loose weight (I need to
loose some too, so nothing offending even to those who need to loose more).
At the end I want to touch one important thing - it was brought to my
attention that one member of record committee (not from Texas) loudly declared
that he would vote in heartbeat against accepting my record because I did
not disclose exact location right after I found the bird, etc. If Texas
committee has similarly thinking people on the board I see no reason why to
bother and my confidence in the committee board will be gone completely. Sure
we are all humans and even divinity was decided in the past by votes but I
would expect more scientific approach from this type of people. As I already
promised to do I will submit this record but if this record is rejected
for that reason or accusation of falsifying the photos I would never submit
any record at all. Again I truly do not care for that record or any similar
one to be associated with my name. If somebody else finds it he/she can
claim the bird as own record. This is not even first record for goddess sake.
So if anybody has inside information how the record committee works
(scientific or personal approach) I would like to know it.
Perhaps most important part of my reply. I received so many nice personal
emails on this subject that I got lost. I will try to answer them all during
next few days and please accept my apology for the delay. I am very
thankful for all of them, many are coming from people I never met. A few hate
mails came as well but sorry I never bother to answer these and they all land
in spam folder so save your time in the future. Also I know that sometimes
emails from Texbirds server are seem to disappear (got some resends in the
past) so if you do not hear from me during next few days I did not receive
your email.
Also - I was planning to disclose location after my LETEs (plus one Caspian
but this is another story) are gone and would did that yesterday (right
now only a last few are hanging around but this is not as much important -
only larger numbers are; BTW migration time perfectly on the schedule). That
was a reason to not discussing this subject as I thought many people would
not understand me and I was trying to avoid senseless discussion. After
reading some hate posts I decided that there is no way I want to have anything
to do with these kind of people and help them in any way now or in the
future. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) we all have different approach
to the birds. If Texbirds is only for twitchers (received emails show
otherwise who are the majority) I would not even bother to post here.
Mark B Bartosik
Houston, Texas
http://www.pbase.com/mbb/from_the_field
In a message dated 9/19/2013 2:16:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Fred_Collins@xxxxxxxx writes:
In today's digital world, photos are nothing but 0 and 1. Anything can be
created with expertise. Every new movie shows us a world that does not
exist in reality. No doubt, should George Lucas take up bird watching he
might
the first to reach 1000 species in ABA Lucas Land. However, for bird
documentation, digital photography has become the gold standard. Today field
notes and/or a sketch are questioned because a digital photo was not obtained.
There are always those that will question an observer's skill,
credibility, or motives, if not currently then from a historical perspective
in the
future. Several birds have come and gone from the state list because specimen
tags have been questioned 100 years after the maker has passed on. In 100
years, I wonder how society will look at a digital photo.
In my opinion, there is no better documentation than m.ob. If 10 or 100
people have knowledge and records of a bird's occurrence, history will be
much more likely to accept a record than if its sole documentation is a
single observer with one set of observation notes or photos.
Unless a bird is threatened by additional observation, as with nesting
species, then the m.ob. seems to be the best possible way to insure a records
place in Texas ornithology history.
When I find an Elegant Tern you will hear it fast and with GPS
coordinates. I need all the help I can get.
Fred Collins
(281) 357-5324
Director: Kleb Woods Nature Center
Cypress Top Historical Park
Commissioner Steve Radack
Harris County Precinct 3
www.pct3.hctx.net
-----Original Message-----
From: texbirds-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:texbirds-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Cameron Carver
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:24 AM
To: MBB22222@xxxxxxx
Cc: texbirds@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [texbirds] Re: Reporting locations of rare sightings
Are there any photos that show definitively that this bird was
photographed on the UTC? All of the photos posted appear to simply be on some
beach
somewhere. Are the photos geotagged? Is there something in the photos that
can give a sense of place? If not, why should we assume that this bird was
found on the UTC? Should we simply take his word?
Cameron Carver
Lubbock, TX
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 19, 2013, at 0:53, MBB22222@xxxxxxx wrote:
> Although I am thinking about to applied to some of posted ideas I have
> no intention at all even to try present excuses of my decision. Some
> would question them (excuses) or even accuse me of lying so why
> bother. In meantime I just want to shortly address this and a few
> similar replies as I am entertained by many insinuations about my
> person that cannot be farther from the truth (so by name calling on
> another forum - thanks goodness Texbirds did not go that low, yet).
> Why would somebody speculate about another person without even
> knowing that person and spend totally unproductive time on making
> his/her own vision of fake reality is beyond my imagination. There are
so many interesting birds out there - focus on finding some instead.
>
>
>
> Every time this subject appears I see the same potential reasons given
> for suppressing news of a rarity. I won't list them again here
> because they have been stated and restated so many times I'm sure we
> all know them by heart. I think many of these reasons are valid if
> the circumstances are as proposed with that reason.
> However, I do not feel that they apply in this circumstance. .
>
> And I feel that wild boars could grown wings and fly. I did not see
> one (with wings) yet but should I keep trying to find one? From when
> somebodys feelings can be use as an argument in any serious discussion?
>
> .. The tern was obviously photographed on a beach close to the water's
> edge.
>
> Yes, obviously
>
> All Texas beaches are public. All Texas beaches are subject to the
> same random, uncontrollable access by us humans. ..
>
> Really, what about private islands etc? But reading some other posts,
> subject not related, some twitchers think that they do have right to
> trespass, rarer the bird - stronger the right. Note: anything I will
> write in this reply might or might not be related to the ELTE location.
>
> And yes, most beaches in Texas are subject to the same random,
> uncontrollable access by us humans but, unfortunately, many do not act
> as humans once there.
>
>
> .. Mark seems to spend most of his time between Bryan Beach and San
> Luis Pass .
>
>
> Very wrong: this year I spent very small part of my time in the field
> there and I did not know that I had a tail watching were I go. Again
> this does not mean that I saw ELTE there or not.
>
> . and if any of you have visited this area, you'll know that it
> receives so much recreational visitation (beach-goers, walkers,
> vehicles, para-sailors, surfers, fishermen, etc) that I contest it
> would be almost impossible for birders to disturb birds (by any
> significant degree) more than they already experience on a daily basis.
>
> BTW if one wants to go to river month buy a shovel (big one in
> Wal-Mart about $7) - great investment, I used it a few times this
> year. Also this will provide help to access places were there are no
people, and twitchers.
> Just birds.
>
>
> So while there are good and valid reasons for suppressing a rarity, in
> this case they simply do not apply, I feel. ..
>
>
> Feelings again, like in the future tellers room. Anybody still believes
> in witch craft?
>
>
> Does anyone have the "right" to not reveal a bird's location? - of
> course they do! But this is not a matter of someone's rights. It is
about
> chosen behavior within a group that one has chosen to join, engages
with,
> seeks advice from, gets bird location details from, and - let's be
honest -
> enjoys the ego-stroking feedback from, regarding photos! Let me say
that
> all of this applies to almost all of us - especially me. When one is
part of
> such a group and enjoys the benefits listed above, to then choose - for
no
> obvious reason - to suppress the location of a VERY rare bird that many
in
> the group would like to see seems to me, well, rather mean. There is
an
> unwritten covenant that if you take from the group, you give to the
group. .
>
> Texbirds for long time has many subgroups. It seems that we do not
belong
> to the same one. Some of these subgroups decided to leave Texbirds and
> create new fora - one has to have urban dictionary to understand words
used
> there. BTW great places to check on true faces and personality
characters of
> some members there. Some loudly enounced that they are leaving Texbirds
> and never going to come back here. Often it takes weeks, if not days, to
see
> them back on Texbirds - business is business, right? There must be no
> clients in these other places.
>
> It is nice if somebody admits to his own ego-stroking needs. Take from
-
> give to also sounds good but how this works in the real life?
>
> . But Mark has "chased" birds found by others: check out his excellent
> photos of the Yellow-faced Grassquit at Goose Island and the Varied
Buntings
> from Junction, to name a couple of examples. .
>
>
> Sort of bad examples as well. Yellow-faced Grassquit - I spent a lot
of
> time there for other reasons - it happened that on that day I was
there. I
> would not travel even 10 miles to chase this bird. Varied Buntings from
> Junction - I found these guys myself, or better said they found me. If I
> did not have them in the front of my lens I would not take a trip to
find one.
>
> Now I could give a lot examples showing my approach to chase rarities.
> Perhaps I write about one case as this is verifiable by a person who
knows me
> very little so should have no reason to twist the story. Not long ago
> Sulfur Flycatcher was found at Quintana by Sandy. She came to me on the
beach
> and told me about it - I think she was surprised that I showed no
interest to
> see it. BTW I told her that if I want to study a bird I will travel to
> places were I can find them in larger number in their natural habitats.
I am
> not interested in a few snapshots in bad light of the bird I have no
> interest in. I left the island as fast as I could as I was afraid that
circus is
> coming to town. On the way out I passed people (with Sandy) looking at
the
> bird - I did not even slow down. We wave hands to each other. For
record - I
> never saw that bird in my life but this no mater if I ever will or not.
> Have other more interesting, to me, things to do.
>
> When I am on flycatchers it remain me of something. Martin feels that he
> can speculate about other people characters and motives. Should I
speculate
> what were his motives when he was sending so many times so many people
on
> wild goose chases after wrongly Iding some birds . Helping local
economy?
> Stroking his ego? Giving back to community? Perhaps none of these so
why even
> try to speculate and who wants to know? One always can ask directly. I
am
> sure he knows many birds better than average birder. But IMHO there are
> limits if somebody wants to know them all. I rather prefer people who
study
> small groups, even individual species - unfortunately this approach
became
> unpopular.
>
> .. In a (probably futile) effort to reduce the hate mail, .
>
> I know of miracle way to handle this. Ignore them - works like a charm.
>
>
> .. I'd like to say that since some of you chose to publicly defend
> suppression in general and Mark's choice in particular, it is okay for
me to
> publicly question some of the premises you used to do-so. .
>
> I would like here to thanks all who decided to do so. I learned a lot
about
> great character of these few people (that in all cases, except one, I
> never met) and, not surprisingly, all of them have great knowledge
about birds.
>
>
>
> At the end I would like to show one more speculation coming from
another
> poster that also is quite misleading.
>
> Adam Wood wrote:
>
> Adding to the point that Mark spends a lot of time finding his own
> interesting birds and that the rest of the birding community is free to
do and
> should do the same thing. I think this is asking a bit much. Mark is in
an
> enviable position that his photography is outstanding and it is able to
> support his life style thus enabling him to be able to spend a large
quantity
> of hours in the field with the birds that only increases his odds of
> finding a really interesting bird. I realize there are many birders out
there
> like him or are retired that can put in the necessary number of field
hours to
> find an interesting bird but then there are those of us who work 40
hours
> a week day jobs and don't have the ability to easily put in the hours
that
> it requires to increase the odds of finding that interesting bird. We
rely
> on others sharing their good finds with us to be able to see a fair
number
> of rarities. ..
>
> Although very nice post it is based on complete wrong assumptions and my
> reply is not personal, I never met Adam and I do not use my feelings to
> judge a person.
>
> Usually I work more than 40 hours a week (do not even ask me how many
hours
> a week at my day time job I worked lately). It is a matter of priority
> how one wants to spend the rest of the 24 hour days and weekends.
During the
> summer sun raises early and set late Get up early and go to the field,
> leave work and drive straight to the field Everybody has this choice.
Some
> prefer doing other things and demand from others to give them things on
> the silver plate. How about that others should find the bird and then
call
> the limo to take twitchers personally to the location - they all
deserve
> that, right? We own them that, right? X number on the list is the most
> important indicator of the person status in the community. These who
watch
> cardinals in their own backyards are subhumans, right? But should serve
super
> humans and feel blessed, right? In all these big lists how many birds
were
> found personally by a lister? Who and for what needs them (big lists).
Birds we
> re already found and documented. It will be more important to try find
> another rare one that was not documented yet. Why to create this huge
carbon
> print just to say me too?
>
> I need to go to sleep - there is another long day tomorrow .
>
> Am I mean? - as suggested by Martin. Do not get too close if you do not
> want to find out if I can bite or not :)
>
> Mark B Bartosik
> Houston, Texas
> http://www.pbase.com/mbb/from_the_field
>
>
> In a message dated 9/18/2013 10:16:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> upupa@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
>
> Dear All,
> Every time this subject appears I see the same potential reasons given
for
> suppressing news of a rarity. I won't list them again here because
they
> have been stated and restated so many times I'm sure we all know them by
> heart. I think many of these reasons are valid if the circumstances are
as
> proposed with that reason.
> However, I do not feel that they apply in this circumstance. The tern
was
> obviously photographed on a beach close to the water's edge. All Texas
> beaches are public. All Texas beaches are subject to the same random,
> uncontrollable access by us humans. Mark seems to spend most of his
time between
> Bryan Beach and San Luis Pass, and if any of you have visited this
area,
> you'll know that it receives so much recreational visitation
(beach-goers,
> walkers, vehicles, para-sailors, surfers, fishermen, etc) that I
contest it
> would be almost impossible for birders to disturb birds (by any
significant
> degree) more than they already experience on a daily basis.
> So while there are good and valid reasons for suppressing a rarity, in
> this case they simply do not apply, I feel.
> Does anyone have the "right" to not reveal a bird's location? - of
course
> they do! But this is not a matter of someone's rights. It is about
chosen
> behavior within a group that one has chosen to join, engages with,
seeks
> advice from, gets bird location details from, and - let's be honest -
enjoys
> the ego-stroking feedback from, regarding photos! Let me say that all
of
> this applies to almost all of us - especially me. When one is part of
such
> a group and enjoys the benefits listed above, to then choose - for no
> obvious reason - to suppress the location of a VERY rare bird that many
in the
> group would like to see seems to me, well, rather mean. There is an
> unwritten covenant that if you take from the group, you give to the
group.
>
> Some in this discussion have mentioned that Mark does not chase and
spends
> a great deal of time finding his own interesting birds. I certainly
agree
> with the last part, and commend him for the work he puts in and insight
he
> gains AND SHARES due to such efforts. But Mark has "chased" birds
found
> by others: check out his excellent photos of the Yellow-faced Grassquit
at
> Goose Island and the Varied Buntings from Junction, to name a couple of
> examples.
> Mark is under no obligation to explain himself, but I feel I must be
> missing something, as there seems no good reason in the apparent
circumstances
> for Mark to choose not to share the location (although he as the right
to
> so-choose).
>
> In a (probably futile) effort to reduce the hate mail, I'd like to say
> that since some of you chose to publicly defend suppression in general
and
> Mark's choice in particular, it is okay for me to publicly question
some of
> the premises you used to do-so.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
> ---
> Martin Reid
> San Antonio
> www.martinreid.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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