Dear All/Matt, I'd like to thank Matt for providing an update on his feelings about this ID conundrum. No doubt most of my claimed CAVIs are those which Matt would take issue with! :-) I would like to ask Matt to comment on a feature that for some reason I seem to be fixated on: the border/divide between the pale throat and the dark neck-sides. Looking at pics from the west coast I think I see some CAVIs (fall males?) with a fairly clean division in this area, however the only pics of BHVIs from further east that have a less-clean division also seem to have some equivocal features (i.e. I see no bright, dark-headed, yellow-flanked birds with a less than clean division). Then there are those birds which have pale gray heads such that the lores is darker than the rest of the head - these birds typically have the first few millimeters of the throat/neck divide somewhat clean, with the rest being fuzzy. Another feature that I thought was strong but may not be is the extent of (or lack of) "dirtiness" on the throat, chest and breast area: I had the impression that (especially in Fall when all birds are fairly fresh-plumaged) BHVIs are immaculate on the underparts - ? This may be complicated by intergrades from Alberta, which based on an over-simple assumption of migration routes are likely to pass through the center/east of Texas... I guess I have some questions - most of which are more for the purposes of starting a discussion rather than in hope of there being a simple answer: 1) Can pure BHVI have a fuzzy neck/throat divide? 2) - if no, then what about the pale-headed birds with only a partially-clean divide? 3) Is it likely that the majority of birds with fuzzy divides seen in the eastern half of Texas are intergrades between BHVI and CAVI? 4) Assuming that intergrades are the best explanation for birds with some CAVI features, can we draw a line on what qualifies for a good CAVI, accepting that some birds that fall short of this line could well be "pure" CAVIs - ? Regards, Martin --- Martin Reid San Antonio www.martinreid.com Edit your Freelists account settings for TEXBIRDS at //www.freelists.org/list/texbirds Reposting of traffic from TEXBIRDS is prohibited without seeking permission from the List Owner