[tcb] Re: I'm thoroughly bummed... the 23 won't be at Nac

  • From: Gerald Livingston <gerald.tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 17:14:49 -0500

This is getting long so I trimmed it up a bit.

You have problems that a "hot start" relay will probably not fix but
earlier there was a suggestion to get a Ford starter relay and add it


The only reason a Ford relay  usually worked for people is because it
was new and the solenoid it was "helping" was old. A ford starter relay
is basically the same as the solenoid on your starter. It's a GREAT BIG
coil that uses 4 or 5 amps to pull in a set of contactors rated for 200+
amps used to turn the starter motor itself. It's a waste to use it to
provide power to your starter solenoid that probably just needs 6 or 8
amps as it ages. And, if it's a wiring problem then putting a solenoid
the same size as the original on the end of the weak wire will leave
the same problem.

For 12V systems the relay to use is the ubiquitous "little black
block" sold as a general purpose automotive relay. The contacts are
rated for 30 to 40 amps and even that is overkill. The COIL on them
draws less than 0.5 amp.

For a 6 volt system buy these and toss them in your toolbox. 


Under $10 each is a VERY good price. These are appliance relays rated
for continuous duty just like the 12V square block automotive relays.

In the next few days I'll do a write-up of how to wire them to get good
voltage to your starter solenoid, ignition coil, and headlights by
bypassing the switches and long wiring runs. Using relays will also
help extend the life of your switches because a small relay uses a LOT
less amperage to operate than the items they will be running.

You should be able to put these completely out of sight keeping a stock
look except for a few extra single-wire runs that only a concours level
judge would notice.

I think a few people saw my relay box at T@P last year. It's "tossed-in
sloppy" and has the extra feature of a plug I can connect a cable to
and operate the ignition and starter from the engine bay plus a 3rd
relay at the back to use for an aux-battery charging circuit later.
In use I have 2 relays in back (starter and coil) and two up front
(high/low beams with H4 headlights).


On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
James Dwan <james_dwan_2000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Cool, thanks for the detailed reply. Luckily Hammond Bros. is on the
> way to work. I'll take both of them up there in the morning. It's
> just odd that the original starter worked well enough to get me to
> the show but crapped out on my as I tried to leave. That seems to
> coincidental but I guess stranger things have happened... James 
> DAC 
> '59 23 Window Deluxe
> '73/'77 Westfakia 
> '78 Super Vert
> ________________________________
>  From: w.wood <evil.scientist.boo@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 2:19 PM
> Subject: [tcb] Re: I'm thoroughly bummed... the 23 won't be at Nac
> if you took a screwdriver and shorted the lead from the battery lug
> on the starter to the spade lug from the ignition switch and got a
> click, you have one of two possible things.
> 1) 90% probable: The solenoid contacts at the base (inside) are worn
> or broken.  The solenoid activates (pulls current and the plunger
> pulls back) incompletely.  You can check this by removing the starter
> and taking the solenoid off.  Using a 12V source activate the
> solenoid and then check for continuity from the  battery lug to the
> motor lug.  If there is no continuity the solenoid is defective.
>  Think of this as a big coil relay, when field energy (from the spade
> lug) from the ignition switch is applied it becomes an electro-magnet
> drawing the plunger down.  At the bottom there are contacts which
> bridge from the battery lug to the motor lug and at bottom this is
> where the starter gear would be extended into the bell housing and
> engaged with the flywheel.  At that point with continuity the motor
> will spin.
> 2) or ... Bad Starter Motor.  The bearings/bushings etc are worn out
> and it's now a door stop.  Tapping it with a hammer can usually free
> up a stuck starter motor, that's why I suggested this method.  It
> also works for a sticking solenoid as well.
> Yes it is possible to have 2 with bad solenoids because most
> remanufacturers do not change the solenoid.  They test it on a bench
> for about 10 seconds and let it go.  It's possible that you have worn
> out solenoids.
> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM, James Dwan
> <james_dwan_2000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> So I have 2 bad solenoids on 2 different starters, or I have
> resistance between the ignition switch and my solenoid?
> > 
> >James 
> >
> >
> >DAC 
> >TCB
> >'59 23 Window Deluxe
> >'73/'77 Westfakia 
> >'78 Super Vert
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: w.wood <evil.scientist.boo@xxxxxxxxx>
> >To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 1:46 PM
> >
> >Subject: [tcb] Re: I'm thoroughly bummed... the 23 won't be at Nac
> > 
> >
> >
> >you want one of these then.
> >
> >
> >http://www.smithcoelectric.com/servlet/the-465/0331302001-0331302002-0331302004-0331302005/Detail ;
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 1:32 PM, James Dwan
> ><james_dwan_2000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >Yep that's what I call cross starting it. I tried that before I
> >checked the bushing. Just sparks and a click
> >> 
> >>James 
> >>
> >>
> >>DAC 
> >>TCB
> >>'59 23 Window Deluxe
> >>'73/'77 Westfakia 
> >>'78 Super Vert
> >>
> >>
> >>________________________________
> >> From: w.wood <evil.scientist.boo@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 1:13 PM
> >>
> >>Subject: [tcb] Re: I'm thoroughly bummed... the 23 won't be at Nac
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>Have you done the screwdriver test?

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