I think you all should keep your arguments off this list, and just stick with the topic at hand. If you got to fight about it fight it out somewhere else. Everyone is entitled to speak their minds as long as it doesn't offend anyone else. When that happens get their email address and deal with it there. You ask for feed back so when someone gives you their opinion that's it just their opinion. You want hear from me again unless it is topic related. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison and Chip Orange" <acorange@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: [tabi] Re: my object to Nova 2010
Hi William, you've seen Robert's reply, and I'm afraid he's right on every point.I know there's history between you two however, and I'm concerned you won'tlisten to him, so let me explain why I disagree with you: first, no, no one can "guarantee" my safety; however, that's no reason not to plan. if we followed that train of thought everywhere it lead us, wewouldn't bother with red lights, or safety belts, or air bags, or any othertype of planning in which we try to avert disaster.you need to understand my objection wasn't to the grid system; in my opinionit's not even worth discussing until we first plan for safety of allpassengers. if StarMetro can do that, then we may have a grid system after all; but, they need to try first. if they didn't plan for safety then they wouldn't bother hiring well-trained drivers to drive the buses, they'd just let anyone who wanted do so; safety is something they *must* consider everyday. Robert has addressed the point about being a "trouble maker"; no more need be said on that. as for being a helpless minority who are at the mercy of a crushing,overwhelming, majority: I have to say that's such a shocking attitude that Idon't quite know where to begin. I think it's sufficient to say that our society has numerous laws designed to protect helpless minorities; they're specifically in place so that these helpless minorities don't have to roll-over and just say "yes sir" and "no sir" out of fear for what will happen otherwise. I'm thinking of laws to protect against rape; againstbeing a battered wife; and against racial discrimination just to name a few. no one would dare tell a woman not to make trouble about her safety becauseshe's a minority and something might happen to her if she does.There's nothing wrong with your working with StarMetro, don't get me wrong;but given the message you just wrote, it sounds like you've completely forgotten who you're representing when you're working with StarMetro; it's blind people who have a wide range of opinions. And finally, this is the second time you or Sally have made a reference to my not riding the buses, and implied somehow that therefore, I'm notentitled to an opinion. I'd like to point out that I have ridden the busesin the past, and I have an opinion now for the same reason I write free software, or operate tabi, or donate many hours a week to helping blindpeople with computer problems. in each and every case it's a desire to help blind people of all varieties along with their lives. I have an opinion onthe plans for the bus system out of concern for those who may be injured, and who in my opinion weren't being spoken up for. And finally, if you'll get over being angry you'll see my remarks weren'tdesigned to stop nova 2010, but just to modify one part of it while it's in the planning stage, and before we have an injury to make us do so. the cityplanner whom I spoke with and I had several ideas as to how that might be done, and still go forward. and my comments were only going to the city commission if the issue was not worked out in the next few months; that's exactly why they are having listening sessions right now, to try and do that.so, I conclude with I deny that I'm a trouble maker, I think I'm a planner.Chip -----Original Message-----From: tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tabi-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On BehalfOf blindwilly Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:58 AM To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tabi] Re: my object to Nova 2010 Chip, Did you ever think that the city commissioners can never guarantee your safety. Even sighted pedestrians and drivers have accidents. There are only two audible crossings now, but they are going to try to address the rest and we will never get there if we don't start. Your refusal to consider or compromise means we will never get any where. We are not helpless and we don't need the entire world to change just toguarantee our safety. I know who walks the streets and who never sets foot on the sidewalk. I am tired of this bashing that is going to build a wallbetween us and them. We need to work with them or they will do what they want and we will be labeled as trouble makers and we will be left behind, because they are the powerful majority and we are not. I have been trying to be reasonable and they are listening to us by coming to our TCB meeting and to the Light House, but if we go in there with guns blazing, then we are going to loose our position of reason. William----- Original Message ----- From: Chip Orange <mailto:Corange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: tabi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:54 AM Subject: [tabi] my object to Nova 2010 hi all, I spoke with a StarMetro planner yesterday, and he said only 2 intersections of the possible 41 proposed for transfer points, currently have audible signals. (I think Lynn did tell us that). perhaps, just perhaps, they'll be able to add 10, even 20, in the next year, but by no means all of them will get audible signals. the point I made to him, and the one I intend to make to the city commission unless there is a dramatic change in the plan, is that no intersection, even with an audible signal, is safe for a blind person to cross. audible signals only make it somewhat safer, but many of our localblind residents can testify about being hit. I don't think even our best, most skillful, independent travelers, can say that crossing an intersectionsuch as many of those proposed by StarMetro is safe; and, a number of our blind residents do not fall into the class of our "most skillful" independent travelers. I intend to urge the city commission to deny the entire plan until the safety of disable riders can be assured by never requiring a transfer through an intersection; StarMetro has got to be forced to come up with another way to handle transfers. I know others of you have other objections to the plan, and I've heard and agree with a lot of them, but this is to me, the single really good one, which is good enough to warrant the city commission stopping implementation until it is worked out. I do support other objections which have been raised, including the one I just mentioned that with all the bus stops moving to new locations, they are going to be hard to find, and that the routes and the location of stops require a lot of walking at times, which itself is also unsafe. but when I write the commission after the plan is submitted to them, I am onlygoing to focus on the safety issue, as I think it's the most important, andI don't want to overwhelm them in my letter with les important objections. I hope all of you will consider writing to the city commission, butnot until the plan has been submitted to them. any letters before then areevidently just forwarded to StarMetro, without engaging the commissioners' attention. thanks. Chip ------------------------------ Chip Orange Database Administrator Florida Public Service Commission Chip.Orange@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (850) 413-6314 (Any opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the Florida Public Service Commission.)Check out the TABI resource web page at http://acorange.home.comcast.net/TABIand please make suggestions for new material.if you'd like to unsubscribe you can do so through the freelists.org web interface, or by sending an email to the address tabi-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject.
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Check out the TABI resource web page at http://acorange.home.comcast.net/TABI and please make suggestions for new material. if you'd like to unsubscribe you can do so through the freelists.org web interface, or by sending an email to the address tabi-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject.