---------- Forwarded message ---------
보낸사람: David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2022년 1월 26일 (수) 오후 2:18
Subject: Re: [sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
To: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
Sure David, share away
I love your urge to spell or pronounce in a fruity way :) It’s intriguing
that pronunciation marks us in one or another community, and that it gets
frozen after ~7 years. Tells us something important about lg evolution.
Although it’s least accessible to conscious choice, I know from being a
second lg learner what a big deal can be made of it (not to mention
parenting and grandparenting).
This is also why early literacy teaching practices fail so many children.
The conscious focus on graphology consumes their semiotic labour, so they
cannot attend to LG, DS or register. An effective literacy approach starts
from register, and brings lg strata to consciousness in steps.
David
*From: *데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Wednesday, 26 January 2022 at 3:50 pm
*To: *David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *Re: [sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
Yes, I think that is "a" question. Perhaps it is even "the" question, from
your point of view. But it wasn't my question at all. If you look back over
the thread, you will see that my question was about phonological
selections, or in this case, graphological selections.
Of course ,it's possible to make your own "grafological" selections. But
there are fewer degrees of freedom, less planning, and thus much less of
what Vygotsky called "will" involved. With phonological selections, the
"default" selections suggested by the discourse community in which you
choose to participate are far more powerful; honored in the breach.
Of course, I can decide to spell or pronounce my LG selections in a fruity
way if I so choose (e.g. "grafological" instead of "graphological"). But
these choices really have to be motivated--I have to have a very good
reason not to use the canonical and preferred realizations of phonology and
graphology. This isn't the case when I choose how to answer your email (LG)
or whether to answer it at all (DS). When I choose to answer your email and
when I choose wordings to answer it, the canonical selections, to the
extent there are any at all, are counter-motivated: I would have to have a
very good reason to use the canonical formulaic expressions suggested by
the gmail programme I am using, and even then I risk offending you..
Which I certainly do not wish to do. Say, do you want me to share this with
the list too? I think that some people on sys-func might want to see it and
some (e.g. Ed) may even have something very fruitful to contribute.
dk
2022년 1월 26일 (수) 오후 1:03, David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Hi David
Just to make my (limited) view clear, here’s a quick analysis of your last
post to me. Appraisal is italicised, identification underlined, and
ideation in bold. Much of the appraisal engages with our previous messages,
counters alternative positions and proposes others. The initial ‘that’
presumes my previous question, while other items presume selections,
decisions and a framework, and contrasts discourse with thinking. Taxonomic
relations are complex, but roughly set out as a table below, including
classes of selections and decisions, selection/decision/thinking synonymy,
the thinking/discourse contrast, and the repetition of discourse, as an
entity, classifying semantics, and classifying a framework.
*Sure*, and *that's* the *key problem*. *I think* that *selections* *that
are* *less **deliberate* and *more *"*automatized*" are *probably BETTER*
described in *a* *discourse semantics* *framework* (because *they* are *
not* *psychological* *or even* *interpersonal* *decisions* *but*
*sociological* *ones* in which the role of *the individual* is *passive
adaptation*). But *discourse semantics* *doesn't account very well* for
*unique* *decisions* at the level of wording and meaning. *Discourse*
*isn't* *the same thing as* *thinking*.
selections decisions thinking discourse
deliberate psychological discourse
semantics
automatized interpersonal discourse semantics
framework
sociological
passive adaptation
So a question is whether these DS selections were any less deliberate than
the LG selections that realise them. There are also graphology selections
that seem deliberate, such as quotes, brackets, all caps and other
punctuation.
How does this compare with your view?
David
dk
2022년 1월 26일 (수) 오전 9:32, David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
So you see selections from Ph systems as more automatized than selections
from LG systems?
David
*From: *데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Wednesday, 26 January 2022 at 11:22 am
*To: *David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *Re: [sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
No, I agree with Halliday's bracketing. But Ed's right. I see a difference
between color categories construed by the cone cells in the eye, and color
categories construed by the cerebral cortex of the brain, through language.
So I would make a similar distinction between selections made when we put a
thought into wordings (selections more or less consciously and deliberately
made in the course of designing an utterance according to a learned
semantic orientation (Bernstein) and on the other hand the kind of
automatized selections made when we put (wordings-realizing-meanings) into
a distinctive articulatory pattern.
Three kinds of evidence for this. First of all, the nerves that connect the
tongue and the brain don't actually have the kind of channel capacity we
would need to plan every significant difference in articulation in real
time (M. Tatham, my neuro-phonetics teacher at Essex, demonstrated this).
Second, people have foreign accents that are not easily changed after
puberty. Thirdly, on a theoretical level, Halliday distinguishes between
register (which is about planning utterances) and dialect (which isn't).
I accept both kinds of meta-redundancy. My point was that the difference is
poorly explained by a discourse semantics, but well explained
psychologically. Our system networks are based on the notion of choice, but
choice means one thing when we are putting meanings into wordings and
something very different when we are putting wordings into soundings. Like
the brackets, the system network is a kind of abstraction that misses an
important psychological distinction (which Vygotsky does not miss).
dk
2022년 1월 26일 (수) 오전 9:06, David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Just on meta-redundancy ...
As far as I can understand, your interpretation of MAKH’s bracketing
construes (wording-realizes-meaning) as ‘verbal thinking’? In which ‘a
person is doing the thinking’?
And this doesn't work for (sounding-realizes-wording) because there’s
nobody ‘doing the thinking’?
David
*From: *데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 25 January 2022 at 11:39 pm
*To: *David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *Re: [sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
Thanks, David. I did read it when I was doing my PhD (back when I met you
in Brisbane, actually). But I don't have a copy here in Seoul, and it's
much appreciated.
Vygotskyan psychology IS materialist psychology. But you are right--you
wouldn't think so from the Anglo-American interpretation (the Francophone
interpretation, however, is a bit more 'attentif' to this aspect).
Vygotsky's earliest writings, before he became a Marxist (when he was still
a religious Jew albeit highly unorthodox) are quite close to Spinoiza, and
also to Halliday--"matter" and "meaning" are co-equal. But they are still
monist, so there is the assumption that matter and meaning will eventually
be reducible to each other, something Haliday wasn't too sure about.
(Criticisms always welcomed, you know. But meta-redundancy without
bracketing doesn't really make any sense: it's either too rigid or not
rigid enough....)
dk
2022년 1월 25일 (화) 오후 9:04, David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Apologies David, I hadn’t meant to criticise your position. At any rate,
Firth says it more eloquently than I could, and gives some of the
background to SFL’s materialist roots. Attached is pleasant reading, but I
guess you know it already
Best
David
*From: *데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 25 January 2022 at 9:50 pm
*To: *David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *Re: [sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
No problem, David. But perhaps three little problems with the post itself?
a) I am not sure that the diversity of Vygotskyan psychology is really
represented by the geography of it you sketch! There is, after all, a well
respected Melbourne school, a Moscow school, and even a Seoul school
loosely affiliated with both.
b) I am quite sure, however, that SFL doesn't have the unified position
that you describe. I recently did a PhD at Macquarie on SFL in child
development and child psychology, and it was well received by the (very
systemic) department there.....
c) Note that I wasn't putting forward the simple formula you suggest: My
use of brackets reflects perfectly the use of bracketing in the quotation
that Chris provided, with which I was already quite familiar. Not sure that
the axial dimension is relevant here, really....isn't metaredundancy a
property of both system AND structure?
(I think I met you once in Brisbane--you were talking about Reading to
Learn, which you introduced as "trinocular"--but you mean the three
metafunctions, not the three strata.....)
dk
2022년 1월 25일 (화) 오후 7:05, David Rose <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Thanks David
*From: *sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 25 January 2022 at 7:53 pm
*To: *sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[sys-func] Fwd: Re: Metaredundancy
---------- Forwarded message ---------
보낸사람: * David Rose* <david.rose@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2022년 1월 25일 (화) 오후 4:30
Subject: Re: [sys-func] Re: Metaredundancy
To: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
Hi David
Could I ask you to forward this to sysfunc as my posts don't seem to be
getting through
Different perspectives on Vygotsky’s psychology, that could shed light on
your puzzle, have tended to cluster regionally around North American and
European interests, one focusing more on the ‘intra-psychological’
dimension of his theory, and the other more on its ‘inter-psychological’
dimension’. In the latter view, consciousness is always already social, or
in SFL terms, social semiotic. SFL’s position is that a notion of ‘mind’
outside of meaning is misleading.
Solving the linguistic puzzle is not much helped by the short-hand formula
‘sounding realizes wording realizes meaning’, which foregrounds
metaredundancy but elides the axial dimension of each stratum, that is
central to SFL theory, along with rank. In fact, features in systems at
each stratum are meaningful in relation to each other, realized axially by
structures. So within lexicogrammar, structures of wordings already realize
meanings of wordings (i.e. features in LG systems). Within discourse
semantics, features in DS systems are realized by DS structures. The same
holds for structures of soundings at the rank of tone group, but less
obviously at ranks of foot and syllable.
Lemke’s point about metaredundancy was that these axial relations at each
stratum are not isolated from each other, but constitute ‘patterns of
patterns of patterns’ that conspire to realize unfolding meanings as text.
Hjelmslev then allows us then to treat ‘context’ as connotative semiotic
systems realized by denotative systems of language and other modalities.
Not only is there no need for ‘mind’, but neither for ‘context’ outside of
meaning.
Best
David
*From: *sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, 25 January 2022 at 1:54 pm
*To: *sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *[sys-func] Re: Metaredundancy
I am more puzzled than ever, but perhaps that is because I tend to be more
psychological than most people on this list (the influence of Vygotsky, I
guess).
Psychologically, it really makes a big difference whether we say
a) "Sounding realizes (wording-realizing-meaning)" or
b) "(Sounding-realizing-wording) realizes meaning".
In one case, we have some unit of verbal thinking (e.g. a concept) realized
as phonology/phonetics, and a person is doing the thinking. But in the
other case, there is a kind of morpho-phoneme that seems to be doing the
realizing, the morpho-phonetics seems to be thinking itself.
We do see this distinction in language development: I have some data from a
three year old Korean girl who offers to sing a song to her mother, and the
song turns out to involve her mother's funeral. This is a happy occasion
because it involves people (including the daughter) giving her mother
pretty flowers, which have real, immediate, and entirely positive meaning
for the child). In contrast, the funeral does not seem to involve her
mother dying (which would probably be a bit of incomprehensible wording for
the child anyway).
See: Kellogg, D. and Song, S.-M. (2020) The problem of articulate animals
in Korean child conversation: A Hallidayan analysis, a Vygotskyan
interpretation, and a Hasanian critique, WORD, 66:3, 149-165, DOI:
10.1080/00437956.2020.1793498
(p. 153)
Activity theorists--and some systemicists too, because writers like Martin
do tend to get their Vygotsky from the activity theorists--avoid
psychological analyses like these (and even their semantics is a "discourse
semantics" rather than a psychological semantics). Halliday himself once
remarked that "mind" is not a useful concept in SFL the way that
"consciousness" is (because consciousness, unlike "mind" is the product of
evolution) and that he considered psychology "relevant but often avoidable"
for an entry into SFL.
But for my purposes (tracing learning and development) the
distinction seems necessary and unavoidable.
dk
2022년 1월 24일 (월) 오전 7:07, Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>님이 작성:
Dear Colleagues,
The following might be helpful for anyone puzzled by the term
'metaredundancy'.
Halliday (2003 [1995]: 425-6):
Lemke shows that a stratified system is one in which there is a
relationship of complex redundancies, which can be expressed summarily as
follows:
given a tri-stratal system S/LG/Ph, then
a sound pattern Ph (a, b, c) is redundant with a wording pattern LG (l, m,
n), and
this entire complex (l, m, n / a b, c) is redundant with a meaning pattern
S (p, q, r).
This relationship is reversible…; we can write either
(1) p, q, r / (l, m, n / a, b, c) or
(2) (p, q, r / l, m, n) / a, b, c.
Expressed in terms of "realisation":
(1) "p, q, r is realised as the realisation of l, m, n, in a, b, c",
(2) "a, b, c realises the realisation of p, q, r in l, m, n".
…the relationship of language to its sociocultural context is also one of
redundancy:
the entire stratal complex S/LG/Ph realises a higher-level semiotic
construct… .
This "redundancy of redundancies" is what Lemke characterises as the
"metaredundancy" of the system.
--
dr chris cléirigh
*Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. *
— Marcus Tullius Cicero
====================================
My Linguistics Sites
Factoring Out Structure
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/3YJ2C3QNPBip3NBPwFgul1L?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>
Martin's Discourse Semantics, Register & Genre
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/aMPJC4QOPEiBPkonyHxyayk?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>
(凌遲
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/tQESC5QPXJiZ8NvzouyJOtI?domain=en.wikipedia.org>
)
Working With Discourse: Meaning Beyond The Clause
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/s8IUC6XQ4LfrkwDgET5S1Ir?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>
(凌遲
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/tQESC5QPXJiZ8NvzouyJOtI?domain=en.wikipedia.org>
)
The Cardiff Grammar
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Z691C71R2NTAM7q0vuqwpTg?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>
(凌遲
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/tQESC5QPXJiZ8NvzouyJOtI?domain=en.wikipedia.org>
)
Thoughts That Cross My Mind
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/ReYJC81V0PT634rAliwQChB?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>
The Thought Occurs
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Wn73C91WPRTkn716vF0S3Wi?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>
…
Thoughts That Didn't Occur
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/yA8TC0YKPviGvP89KurXYmM?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>
…
Informing Thoughts
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/7lh6CgZ0N1iA6QkjruyapN3?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>
Systemic Functional Linguistics
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/aav7CjZ1N7inEN9w2FYJ-Y3?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>
Sysfling
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/QHQ6Ck81N9tOlGNR7uykDQO?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>
Sys-Func
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/rEHpClx1Nji2G473yfDVDf3?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>
Attitude In Systemic Functional Linguistics
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/vL1WCmO5glujX427ZfEA7S-?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com.au/>
Martin's Model Of Paralanguage
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/4uEpCnx1jni7wB51zu1-6gd?domain=sflparalanguage.blogspot.com/>
Lexis As Most Local Context
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Nl79CoV1kpfr9W41MTrqMbO?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>
Making Sense Of Meaning
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/DMgwCp81lrtnk6DJGFp0rQY?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>
====================================
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/xCs8Cq71mwf8BwWxDi1WJ5g?domain=link.springer.com>
--
David Kellogg
Sangmyung University
,
New book of translations, with N.N. Veresov:
Vygotsky, L.S. (2021). L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The
problem of age. Singapore: Springer
With outlines, footnotes, and two free, downloadable chapters by the
editor/translators. See the "frontmatter" and "backmatterr" pdfs:
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-1907-6
