After Loncon Andy Sawyer sent me a bundle of Foundation, the adademic journal of the SF Foundation, to replace some issues lost, and leafing through them I find an interesting article in Foundation No 36 (Summer, 1986) which I would like to comment. It is a piece by Sam Moskowitz (SaM from now on), "Setting the record straight: A response to Lundwall's 'Adventures in the pulp jungle'". That Lundwall is Sam J Lundwall (Sam J from now on) who wrote the article refered to in Foundation No 35. SaM also comments Sam J's previous books SF - What's It All About (1971) and SF - An Illustrated History (1977). The debate between SaM and Sam J is largely about two things: 1) What is an sf magazine, and what was the earliest one?; and 2) what was the nature, extent and importance of early US/UK science fiction and stuff from the rest of the world? (To this I will add a couple of non debate-related things from SaM's Foundation article that I found interesting.) In SF - What's It All About Sam J promotes Otto Witt's Hugin (1916-20) as the earliest sf magazine. In SF - An Illustrated history he instead switches to a publication, a supplement to another magazine, named Stella said to have been published with four issues 1886-1888. Many who knew SaM may consider him old-fashioned in his views about literature and a bit dry (when he goes into details, there are a lot of details! - but I enjoyed his article nonetheless). He was always a careful researcher, though. For Hugin, he reports in his Foundation article, he took an issue he owned to Hans Stefan Santesson, who knew Swedish, and let him report about the contents. And he reported back it had two articles about telescopes, two about astronomy, one about perpetual motion machines, one about metallurgy, etc. "There was *no fiction at all*", SaM notes, so it can't be an sf magazine he concludes. I have read more of Hugin. While other issues would have fiction, SaM is basically correct. Hugin was a poular science magazine for young boys. The fiction content was sometimes very strange. Witt wrote stories there to teach youngsters science and technology, where he for instance let elements like carbon and hydrogen appear as living characters and talk to each other to reveal their chemical properties... In a formal sense it is fiction, maybe even science fiction, but it is a bit odd and the purpose was to teach science. Other pieces were more straight sf, but as I remember such stuff was a small minority of the contents. (Many of Witt's novels where straight sf, though. He was no doubt interested in that kind of literature.) For Stella SaM argues that a sort of magazine which is an irregular supplement to another magazine (in this case Svenska Familj-Journalen Svea, "Swedish Family Journal Svea") can't be considered as a proper magazine or sf magazine. But the problem here is instead that this Stella probably never existed! Since Sam J began to write about Stella, local sf fans have been searching for it extensively - and found nothing. The Royal Library, university libraries, catalogues of different kinds, there is nothing about this Stella. One Hans Persson (of the Linköping SF Society) has probably done the most extensive research and he has presented his (lack of) findings in this article from 2007: http://vetsaga.se/?p=29 Unfortunately it is in Swedish, except for some quotes in English. Anyone interested may try some net-based translation service. The title of the piece is "Stella - sf-magasin eller bluff?" ("Stella - Sf magazine or a bluff?") which says it all. Sam J has mentioned Stella several times, and also reproduced covers (Jules Verne Magasinet No 487 and 489) in small size, which very well could have been produced in any graphic program or even a word processor, since it is without illustrations and only has typeset text. Towards the end of his article SaM writes: "Lundwall describes his 'love/hate relationship' with science fiction. I am not a psychiatrist, nor do I know the subject well enough to diagnose the base roots of his attitudes." This takes us to the second main topic of the SaM/Sam J debate: Anglosaxon sf Vs the Rest of the World. It's not a matter of psychiatry, but of world view and politics. (Let me just first mention that SaM regarding US/UK Vs Others argues for instance that Gernsback, who also spoke French and German, published a lot of foreign sf in Amazing Stories and he also calculates that up to his Foundation article more than 450 non-English sf novels had been published in the US and UK.) Here's the thing: Sam J Lundwall formed his world view in a time of the "youth revolt", the 1968 generation, Woodstock, anti-war demonstrations, and all that, ie a strong left-wing current that embraced society. This also meant being against most things from the US and everything "commercial". Much science fiction is and was from the US, to put it mildly, and much is of course also commercial. Sam J is now retired and doesn't do anything in the genre anymore. But if you for instance followed his magazine Jules Verne Magasinet (JVM), which folded only a few years ago, you could see how he constantly talked about that US sf - the UK was treated with more mercy - was just commercial garbage, and that sf from the rest of the world was much better, quite underrated and much more important than that junk comming from the other side of the North Atlantic. He would often present historical genre stuff from the rest of the world to strengthen the thesis that US sf isn't and has never been of the importance in the sf field many of us feeble minded beings have believed. Strangely enough, JVM also published a lot of American sf, quite much more than from any other country... And this went on year after year, decade after decade. The small stencilled sf newsletter I was co-editor of (VÄ, later Fanytt, now transmogrified to the twitter news account SFJournalen) did a long interview with Sam J in 1979, where his world view was already heavily established. We learned eg that America was illiterate because "there are only three bookstores in New York", the biggest sf magazine in the world came from the Soviet Union (the truth: the youth communist league once did *one* special future issue of their regular magazine), sf fandom was much bigger in Poland than America, the Hugo award was a joke because there was a secret conspiracy to auction it off to the highest bidder, etc etc. But there's no reason to complain too much. People are of course entitled to have their own opinions. I found other things of interest in SaM's Foundation article. He mentions that the magazine The Overland Monthly in 1890 had "an entire issue inspired by Edward Bellamy's Looking Backward". And: "During the twenties and early thirties Russian magazines reprinted a substantial number of stories from Gernsback's magazines" - which was total news for me. This must have been before Stalinism had taken a definite strangehold on the Russian society, when there was a period of more artistic freedom. Someone should research this more. How did the Gernsback magazines end up in the USSR? Did Hugo Gernsback himself have contacts with the Russian editors? Etc. And this was also news to me: "...the publisher of Swedish Häpna stopped in my office one day to negotiate the rights to reprint from Science-Fiction Plus /SaM was managing editor/ and when I suggested to him that since he was paying a fair rate he pick and choose from close to 30 other existing magazines, he frankly stated he wanted ours because in our first few issues the less sophisticated stories would be more easily understood." The publisher in question would be either KG or Kurt Kindberg, and the interesting thing is that this was *before* Häpna started. It clearly happened while SF Plus existed, which was only for seven issues in 1953, and Häpna No 1 came in March 1954. I didn't know that the Kindberg brothers took such contacts before launching their magazine and actually visited SaM in his office, though it must have been in connection with a business trip for their other activities. A closing note about early sf magazines: I have myself written in Foundation (No 72, Spring 1998) about what I would call a "proto-sf" magazine, Relationes Curiosae - from 1682! A German popular science magazine, with many stories about "fantastic things" written in a fictionalised style, which the very same year was translated to Swedish and published in a short-lived Swedish edition. Speculations about people living on the Moon, dragons, green people popping up from underground, fantastic machines, etc. And that magazine does exist. It is preserved, the Swedish edition at least, in a bound volume in the Royal Library in Stockholm. --Ahrvid -- ahrvid@xxxxxxxxxxx / Follow @SFJournalen on Twitter for the latest news in short form! / Gå med i SKRIVA - för författande, sf, fantasy, kultur (skriva-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, subj: subscribe) info www.skriva.bravewriting.com / Om Ahrvids novellsamling Mord på månen: http://zenzat.wordpress.com/bocker C Fuglesang: "stor förnöjelse...jättebra historier i mycket sannolik framtidsmiljö"! /Nu som ljudbok: http://elib.se/ebook_detail.asp?id_type=ISBN&id=9186081462 / Läs även AE i nya E-antologin E-Xtra Vildsint https://bokon.se/ebok/vildsint_jens-stenman / YXSKAFTBUD, GE VÅR WCZONMÖ IQ-HJÄLP! 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