[SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: Istvan Nagy <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:08:09 -0800
No.
Istvan Nagy wrote:
> can we use the frequency keyword in time domain simulation too?
> i wouldlike to make a basic spice netlist.
> i would like to use spices not on the market, but in the public domain
> (opensource).
>
> Istvan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:50 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>
>
>
>> Istvan your flavor of SPICE needs to have frequency keyword support as a
>> number in the market currently do.
>>
>> Steve
>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>
>>> hi
>>>
>>> the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as
>>> usual. i normally dont haave measurement data.
>>> the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the Er into
>>> account, skin effect,...
>>> these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped
>>> model
>>> based on equations containing E^x... and similar things.
>>> at least these 2 effects should be included.
>>> Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366) this gives a frequency dependency for C
>>> and G
>>> R is dependent on f because of the skin effect.
>>> somehow L is also dependent on frequency?
>>>
>>> because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few
>>> parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size.
>>>
>>> Istvan
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Istvan what data do you have? Do you have measurements from material
>>>> samples?
>>>>
>>>> For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent
>>>> loss. If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will
>>>> tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances
>>>> than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Steve.
>>>> Istvan Nagy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> hi
>>>>> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency
>>>>> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st
>>>>> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good.
>>>>> are there any equations?
>>>>> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4
>>>>> element
>>>>> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with
>>>>> staying
>>>>> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice)
>>>>>
>>>>> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not
>>>>> w-element
>>>>> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary
>>>>> power planes, with lumped-element grid.
>>>>> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the
>>>>> calculated values, without describing the calculation.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> Istvan Nagy
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>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Steve Weir
>>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>>> 121 North River Drive
>>>> Narragansett, RI 02882
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>> --
>> Steve Weir
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>
>> California office
>> (866) 675-4630 Business
>> (707) 780-1951 Fax
>>
>> Main office
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> Oregon office
>> (503) 430-1065 Business
>> (503) 430-1285 Fax
>>
>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>> This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> LLC
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--
Steve Weir
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
121 North River Drive
Narragansett, RI 02882
California office
(866) 675-4630 Business
(707) 780-1951 Fax
Main office
(401) 284-1827 Business
(401) 284-1840 Fax
Oregon office
(503) 430-1065 Business
(503) 430-1285 Fax
http://www.teraspeed.com
This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of
Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
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