hi the only thing what i have is the dielectric thickness, and Er@1MHz, as usual. i normally dont haave measurement data. the simple RLGC models dont take the frequency-dependeny of the Er into account, skin effect,... these can be described by simple equations, but how to kame a lumped model based on equations containing E^x... and similar things. at least these 2 effects should be included. Er(f)=Er(f0)*(jf/f0)^(-0.006366) this gives a frequency dependency for C and G R is dependent on f because of the skin effect. somehow L is also dependent on frequency? because it is for a unit-cell model, it shouldnt need more then very few parameters, like dielectric thickness, Er(f0), f, cell size. Istvan ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve weir" <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx> To: "Istvan Nagy" <buenos@xxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: plane RLGC Debye model > Istvan what data do you have? Do you have measurements from material > samples? > > For most power work, it is sufficient to use a single value for tangent > loss. If you get the other parameters correct, then the models will > tend to show slightly higher peak impedances at the modal resonances > than measurements out above 1GHz, but the difference is typically not > great. > > Steve. > Istvan Nagy wrote: >> hi >> how can i calculate the Ri, Li, Gi, Ci parameters for a frequency >> dependent unit-cell Debye RLGC model for a power/gnd plane pair? 1st >> order or up to 3rd order Debye model would be good. >> are there any equations? >> (Debye models introduce additional RL and GC elements into the 4 element >> original RLGC model to reflect the frequency-dependency, and with staying >> with basic circuit elements, suitable for spice) >> >> i would like to make frequency dependednt spice 3f5 models (not w-element >> model, since its not compatible with most of the spices) from arbitrary >> power planes, with lumped-element grid. >> I found application notes where in the examples they just shown the >> calculated values, without describing the calculation. >> >> regards, >> Istvan Nagy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Steve Weir > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > California office > (866) 675-4630 Business > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > Main office > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > Oregon office > (503) 430-1065 Business > (503) 430-1285 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group > LLC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu