Let me point out a few additional things about causality of measurements and EM simulation. Most of our "concepts of causality" are based on the assumption that there cannot be a pulse or step response at the receiver prior to T=0. However, T=0 at the receiver is generally either not well defined, or assumed to be the point at which the first wavefront on the interconnect propagates from the transmitter to the receiver in the dielectric medium. Using the T=0 definition of causality, it is the fastest propagation path in the interconnect measurement or full wave model that defines where T=0 at the receiver is. The fastest propagation path is often a direct line of sight path through the board, but it need not be. There are many cases in measurements and full wave EM extractions where the path that you think you are measuring is not the only path that is being measured. For example, take two SMA connectors and place them on two ends of a straight trace, and make a measurement. What you are measuring is a 2-port s-parameter that is the result of multiple propagation paths. The primary and dominant path will be along the trace. If we are able to make a "perfect" measurement then we will "see" just that trace. However, measurements are never perfect. There are leakage paths in the test equipment, cables and connectors, however small. These represent causal propagation between the two ports, but are measurement artifacts. Two cables placed against one another such that there is some slight coupling will be seen as non-causal noise. When transformed to the time domain it will be seen as non-causal noise. This noise should be reduced to extremely low levels in the measurements, and should be filtered in modeling. There are additional modes of propagation that may "appear" non-causal, but in fact are absolutely causal. For example, that SMA connector launch may have vias that penetrate the planes of the PCB. Some signal energy will be lost to excitation of the planar cavities. That planar energy will be picked up at the far end SMA-via, and will be included in the measurement. The propagation path is real, it is causal, and it will contribute out of phase noise to the received primary signal. The s-parameters produced from these measurements, or electromagnetic extraction, are valid and informative, with the caveat that you "meant" to measure the via excitation of the cavities. If this was not the case, then it represents an error. Now take the same trace, and rather than keep it straight, place the two SMAs directly adjacent to each other, and loop the trace around the board with the same length. All of the previous propagation paths exist, yet now the SMA-via to SMA-via planar cavity path is shorter. Significantly shorter than the path across the trace. S-parameters produced from these measurements, or electromagnetic extraction, are valid and informative. Yet, they appear to be non-causal. The step or impulse response created from this s-parameter will have some "noise" or "lift off" prior to what appears to be T=0. Depending on how well the vias are shielding by ground, the amount of noise, and resonance peaked noise, can be quite high. If that "noise" were filtered out of the impulse response, or removed by some causality correction algorithm, the result is now "non-real." In some cases this might just be poor design of the measurement platform. In other cases, it may reflect the reality of the actual design. An example of the later would be traces on a backplane that travel between two adjacent connectors that are 700 mil apart, but require a minimum trace length of 2 inches. The cavity wave will most definitely arrive before the primary signal wave does. -- Scott McMorrow Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 16 Stormy Brook Rd Falmouth, ME 04105 (401) 284-1827 Business http://www.teraspeed.com Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List forum is accessible at: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu