[SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
- From: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <yu_liu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:30:45 -0800
Yu,
When you use the term "dispersive", are you talking about losses =
(resistive, skin effect, dielectric), or about differences in phase =
velocities (page 170 of Pozar's book)? I've heard others refer to loss =
effects as dispersive and have had confusion as a result. Are both uses =
of the term "dispersive" correct?
Jeff Loyer
-----Original Message-----
From: Yu Liu [mailto:yu_liu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:32 PM
To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Xin Wu'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
Mick,
To answer your question: In theory, Yes. In practice, No.
The fundamental principle for SPICE model approach is using lumped=20
elements (RLC) to model distributed effect (S-parameter). For lower=20
frequency and small size, it is possible. But for broad-band frequency=20
and large size (say, 20' FR-4), it is very hard to model the dispersive=20
effects accurately. That's why people start to use frequency-dependent=20
elements, or better yet, import S-parameter directly into Spice engine.
Regards,
Yu
=3D=3D=3D
Apache Design Solutions
web: www.apache-da.com
Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote:
> Xin Wu
>=20
> Thanks for your information. It will be valuable.
> However, it still contains something like (from the example on the web =
you
> referred)
>=20
> E11 11 12 FREQ {V(10,5)}=3D
>=20
> which will not be accepted by some circuit simulators such as ADS. It =
is
> similar to Ansoft fullwave SPICE. I know HSPICE and PSPICE can handle =
it.=20
>=20
> Although it is still a research topic in terms of efficiency, =
stability and
> accuracy etc., I know the problem [S] ---> SPICE model (reduced =
models) is
> solvable without the following limitations in several ways. But, can =
we
> generate broadband SPICE models without frequency dependent lookup =
tables
> such as " FREQ " ? Or is it still solvable without components "FREQ" =
etc. ?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mick
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Xin Wu [mailto:lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:38 PM
> To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
>=20
>=20
> Hi, XL,
> If you want to convert S-matrix into a spice simulator, a lot of=20
> commercial software can do that--that's the simplest way. However, it =
is=20
> possible for yourself to make a equivalent subcircuit which can =
include the=20
> timing and frequency info and then import to a spice like simulator. =
Here=20
> are some application notes:
> http://wwwinfo.cern.ch/ce/ae/Maxwell/apps/2stripem/2stripem.html
> If you want to get involved in more details, I remembered that =
somebody did=20
> his Ph.D work on this in UIUC around early 1990s'.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Xin Wu
> Ph.D student,
> University of Maryland, College Park
> Http://www.wam.umd.edu/~xwu
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Reply-To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx
>>CC: "'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject)
>>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:41 -0800
>>
>>
>>Mick,
>>
>>There are two solutions which I use:
>>
>>1) Apache Nspice is an Hspice compatabible simulator that can
>>co-simulate with Touchstone S-parameter files.
>>http://www.apache-da.com/
>>
>>2) Sigrity BroadBand Spice can convert Touchstone s-parameter files =
into
>>spice black boxes.
>>http://www.sigrity.com/
>>
>>Both are scary accurate in both the frequency and time domain.
>>
>>regards,
>>
>>scott
>>
>>--
>>Scott McMorrow
>>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>2926 SE Yamhill St.
>>Portland, OR 97214
>>(503) 239-5536
>>http://www.teraspeed.com
>>
>>
>>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>Did anybody successfully generate broadband (DC-20GHz) SPICE model =
from S
>>>matrix for complex structures using the SPICE generator in ADS ? Or =
any
>>>other alternatives. I know Ansoft fullwave SPICE does the work.
>>>Unfortunately, some circuit simulators do not support the frequency
>>>dependent lookup table sources. We can definitely use [S] directly, =
but=20
>>>
>>some
>>
>>>users still prefer SPICE models. Any experience to share ?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Xingling(Mick) Zhou, PhD
>>>Signal Integrity Technologist
>>>Agere Systems
>>>
>>>Tel: 610-712-7462
>>>Fax: 610-712-4081
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
> http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/featuredemail
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> =20
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>=20
> .
>=20
>=20
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