Hello, There are lots of ways that people measure the impedance of power planes. There are also a lot of possibilities for errors in the measurements. The big problem is that you cannot discount the wavelength of the signal. As our frequencies go up we need to improve the techniques we use to measure the values.=20 I think it is understood that we need to measure through. That is we need to use a network analyzer and measure the board power plane impedance between the two ports of a network analyzer. To do this you have to calibrate out the cables. Using calibration standards you numerically remove the electrical length and imperfections of the cables. This is done by the network answer after measuring calibration standards. An open-short-load calibration is good to above 5 GHz and is easy to do. The next problem to resolve is the impedance of the stuff between the end of the connector on the cable and the power plane. Some people like to just use the S21 measurement. But I have some concerns about this technique.=20 If there is significant shunt capacitance, I like to use the fact that the through Z in a Pi network is equal to the B value of the ABCD matrix. See Appendix D (page 332) of High-Speed Digital System Design by Hall, Hall and McCall.=20 However in measuring power planes with good RF connectors on both top and bottom of the board, I would expect the series inductance of the vias would cause more errors than the shunt capacitance. Hence I would think a better model is a T network where the two series elements are the top half and bottom half of the vias. The center shunt impedance is the value we are looking for. It is the impedance of the plane to ground. This center shunt impedance would be equal to one over the C value of the ABCD matrix.=20 I would hope that someone on the list has already performed this calculation.=20 The C value is equal to (((1-S11)(1-S22))-(S12 S21)) / 2 Z0 S21 One other concern that I have about this test setup is the impedance of the ground connection between the two RF connectors. Remember the ground path between the two RF connectors needs to be very good. My expectation is that putting the two connectors near the edge of the board would be a good thing with a copper strap around the edge of the board. The connection between the two grounds should be as short as possible with a wide copper construction. However, there is an even better way to do this. The technique is called de-embedding. Microwave people do it all the time. The stuff between the connector at the end of the cable and the power planes in the board is measured and removed numerically. To do this you need to make a board with four RF connectors. Two would be a through measurement of a power plane and two would be a through measurement without any connection to the power plane. Then the two port network of the stuff, both shunt and through, could be de-embed and removed. My problem is that I know that it can be done, but don't know how to do it. I think you divide the S matrix by 2 and then invert it, but I am not sure. I hope there is someone on the list that has made these measurements and calculation and is willing to share their findings. Best regards, John=20 =20 --------------------------------------- The information in this email and attachments hereto may contain legally = privileged, proprietary or confidential information that is intended for = a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the = employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the = intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-mail = information is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to Takata = customers or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is = subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract, if = applicable. If you have received this communication in error, please = immediately notify us by return e-mail, permanently delete any = electronic copies of this communication and destroy any paper copies. --------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Liang, Hongwei Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:35 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] measurement methods of power supply networks for a wirebond BGA package I am searching for methods on using network analyzer to measure power supply networks for a wirebond BGA package from 50MHz to 500MHz. All the wirebonds need to included as part of power supply network. =20 If any one knows a paper or resource, would you please tell me? I appreciate for your help. Thank you, H.W. =20 =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu