I will set down here in writing, for your benefit, some portions of the little store of knowledge I possess about transmission-line crosstalk. Regarding the comment below by Mick zhou, he is correct that my first book, High-Speed Digital Design, did include the statement on page 207, "The forward crosstalk is never larger than the reverse crosstalk", *however* the statement is (admittedly) misleading, due in part to my lack of specification of what I meant by the term "larger". A more precise statement would be, "The (area under the) forward crosstalk (waveform) is never larger than the (area under the) reverse crosstalk (waveform)." That statement about areas I believe to be true under all the conditions (including connector and via crosstalk) that I can think of at the moment. The area relationship leaves open the possibility that the amplitude of a long, low near-end crosstalk waveform (NEXT) could be exceeded by the amplitude of a tall, narrow far-end crosstalk waveform (FEXT). As has been pointed out by other respondents to this thread, that sometimes happens on very long parallel microstrips (many, many signal risetimes long). At the time my first book was published (1993) typical pcb traces were shorter than half a signal risetime. That's not true any longer. My second book, "High-Speed Signal Propagation", page 321, qualifies the discussion, saying that for parallel microstrips having a length less than or equal to half the signal risetime, the peak height of the FEXT never exceeds the peak height of the NEXT. What I didn't say was that the length at which FEXT overtakes NEXT depends on the trace geometry and dielectric constant. If I remember the math correctly, for parallel transmission lines at extended lengths the FEXT amplitude eventually saturates, never growing larger than 1/2 the signal amplitude. Typical microstrips have only a small FEXT coefficient. Striplines have an even much smaller FEXT coefficient. As Yuriy correctly points out, the FEXT coupling coefficient for a stripline may not be zero, but I have not in practice observed significant amounts of stripline FEXT. Crosstalk from packages, connectors, vias, and NEXT from other traces are more likely to cause trouble in stripline connections than stripline FEXT. It is my general experience that in well-terminated synchronous bus architectures NEXT causes more trouble than FEXT for the simple reason that the FEXT waveform arrives at the receiver along with the bus transitions--a time when the synchronous bus is not, by definition, sampling its data inputs. The NEXT waveform, on the other hand, can bounce off the drivers and arrive at a much later time, interfering more heavily with data reception. Asynchonous serial-link designs are equally sensitive to NEXT and FEXT. In an asynchonous serial-link design the FEXT from one channel can (and does) interfere with adjacent channels and must be considered. One last point: in any system that produces most of its crosstalk within a small space (small compared to the signal risetime), the NEXT and FEXT waveforms have approximately equal durations. The NEXT waveform will always be larger, but sometimes not by much. This point applies to many connector and via situations. The NEXT and FEXT waveforms attain almost equal amplitudes when the crosstalk is dominated by either a large lumped-element capacitive crosstalk effect, or a large lumped-element inductive effect. The following article shows a good example: "Directionality of Crosstalk", (1997) www.sigcon.com/Pubs/straight/crosstalk.htm I'll be teaching a public class in Orange County March 17-18 and would be delighted to address this subject in person at that time. Even if you are not registered, just show up at 5:00 pm after class the first day and we can have a little after-hours discussion. Best regards, Dr. Howard Johnson, Signal Consulting Inc., tel +1 509-997-0505, howie03@xxxxxxxxxx www.sigcon.com -- High-Speed Digital Design seminars, publications and films -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yuriy Shlepnev Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:17 AM To: 'Ihsan Erdin'; 'Mick zhou' Cc: 'David Banas'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: general belief about Xtalk I agree with Ihsan in general, but would like to share some thoughts on the TEM waves. The waves in interconnects can be considered as TEM (no E and H along the lines) only in cases of strip-line structures with homogeneous dielectric and with lossless conductor. Even lossless micro-strip line has quasi-TEM dominant mode with both E and H components along the propagation direction due to the boundaries between dielectrics (the effect of these components can be observed above about 5 GHz for typical PCB interconnects). In case of lossy conductors, both strip and micro-strip lines have longitudinal components of E and H that are growing with the frequency. Losses and electromagnetic energy absorption by conductor generates electric field along the propagation direction simply due to the Ohm's low E=r*j - this violates the TEM nature of the fields in interconnects with lossy conductors. Belief in TEM mode is probably based on the common use of static field solvers for analysis of such multi-conductor interconnects. Though, the static solution is typically just the starting point in such analysis. Losses in conductors and dielectrics are added as post-processing of the static solution (with perturbation analysis and analytical formulas for conductor loss and with solution with complex dielectric constant at one frequency for dielectric loss). It provides good approximation even for non-TEM waves in cases if some additional conditions are satisfied - such as the cross-section must be much smaller than wavelength at the highest frequency of interest, smallness of conductor-related losses, identical loss and dispersion in all dielectrics and so on - the detailed analytical analysis is provided in F. Olyslager, Electromagnetic waveguides and transmission lines, Oxford, 1999, p.29. Note, that being non-TEM or quasi-TEM, the waves in multi-conductor lines remain transverse even at very high frequencies (the phase of the fields depends only on the position along the line) and Telegrapher's equations can be still used with appropriate impedance and admittance per unit length extracted with the full-wave (non-static) analysis. On the other hand, the fields near the discontinuity are not transverse in general - that may be distinguishing property of a discontinuity. Though, the fields can be still expanded into a set of the transverse waves (both propagating and evanescent) in any segment of a line close to the discontinuity - this is just analogue of the Fourier expansion. Best regards, Yuriy Shlepnev www.simberian.com -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ihsan Erdin Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:39 PM To: Mick zhou Cc: David Banas; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: general belief about Xtalk Before this issue is laid to rest I'd like to add a few comments to TEM mode of propagation that was mentioned in this thread. The hallmark of TEM is that the field component in the direction of propagation is zero. In a linear and isotropic medium, the E and B fields will be perpendicular to each other regardless of TEM or non-TEM mode of propagation. That condition may be broken if the medium is nonlinear or anisotropic but this could be hardly an issue for SI applications. For all practical purposes it is safe to assume the electric and magnetic fields will remain perpendicular to each other but there will be field component(s) in the direction of propagation when TEM is violated at interconnect discontinuities, connectors and such. Regards, Ihsan On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Mick zhou <mick.zhou@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > David, > Thanks for your inputs and others. There is a similar description in Howard > Johnson's book, p.204-211. Actually I like Fig.5.16. On. p.207, he > even states " The forward crosstalk is never larger than the reverse crosstalk". > It might be the source of the belief. However it cannot be considered > as a proof at all, and is overtaken. His assumption is "Under normal > conditions". My point is we should use this statement to judge results > carefully, especially when extend to other connectors, packages or > mixed modes. > > There are studies (peer-reviewed papers) showing the beliefs are incorrect. > > Have a great weekend. > > Mick > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:22 PM, David Banas <david.banas@xxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > The beliefs you give, below, come from the practical observation > > that, for typical modern PCB designs, capacitive and inductive cross > > talk have similar magnitudes. Consider: > > > > For near end crosstalk: > > - the capacitive and inductive components reinforce each other, but > > - the received energy observed at the victim driver is spread out in > > time, due to the fact that the crosstalk induced energy is > > traveling in a direction opposite that of the advancing wave in the > > aggressor. > > > > For far end crosstalk: > > - the capacitive and inductive components cancel each other, but > > - the received energy observed at the victim receiver is localized > > in time, because the crosstalk induced energy is traveling along > > with the advancing aggressor wave. > > > > So, to know whether a larger magnitude of crosstalk will be observed > > at the near or far end requires knowing something about the relative > > significance of the inductive/capacitive cancelling effects vs. the > > spreading and localizing effects. In typical modern PCB designs, the > > inductive and capacitive components of crosstalk cancel rather well > > and, so, the cancelling ends up being more significant than the > > spreading, and we get larger magnitude at the near end. > > > > -db > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > > On Behalf Of Mick zhou > > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 3:59 PM > > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] general belief about Xtalk > > > > > > Hi, > > > Recently, I run into some basic beliefs about Xtalk from my > > colleagues. > > > They > > > seem match intuiations but may not be right. > > > > > > Statement 1: Single-ended near-end Xtalk is always greater than > > far-end > > > Xtalk, both in f and t domains. > > > Statement 2: Differential/Common near-end Xtalk is always greater > > > than > > the > > > far-end, both in f and t domains. > > > > > > I do not remember any general proofs of the above statements. They > > > may > > be > > > true for many practical cases but may not be generally true. One > > example > > > in > > > S. H. Hall's book, p.50. disproves the statement 1 in t-domain. > > > > > > Any more helps? > > > > > > Mick > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject > > > field > > > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > > For help: > > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > > http://www.si-list.net > > > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > or at our remote archives: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments are intended for the sole use of the named > > recipient(s) and contain(s) confidential information that may be > > proprietary, privileged or copyrighted under applicable law. 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