In the shameless plug for someone else dept: Lee's book "Right the First Time Volume 2" does do a nice job of demonstrating the difference between various weaves including some good cross-section microphotographs and TDR plots. I think it is worth the price of the book for that information alone. Steve Lee Ritchey wrote: > The link to the Circuitree web site requires each person to register and > obtain a password. > > It is true that the thinner weaves are the problem. > > I cover these weaves and results in Chapter 5 of Volume 2 of my book. > There are photos showing what the weaves look like compared to a 3.5 mil > trace. Also show what vias do to very fast signals. > > Lee Ritchey > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: QU Perry <Perry.Qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> To: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Date: 9/14/2007 12:25:54 PM >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? >> >> I would be interested to see a link as well. >> >> Jeff's paper on DesignCon2007 is convincing to me that this is something >> we need to pay attention. Real life design will probably not be as bad >> as the theoretical estimate since most of the diff pair routing we have >> on the PCB is not likely to run a long length non-stop in parallel with >> edge. The "jog" as is called in the paper is very common due to vias etc >> and pretty random. >> >> Also from the data we got from PCB vendor, it appears that thinner >> dielectric substrate the worse fibre weave effect as the gap between the >> fiber is larger. Has this been looked at ? >> >> Regards >> >> Perry >> >> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 >> >> Perry Qu=20 >> >> Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. >> >> 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada=20 >> >> DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642=20 >> >> Email: perry.qu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 >> >> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 >> >> =20 >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of=20 >>> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx >>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 1:59 PM >>> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;=20 >>> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? >>> =20 >>> Would you like to share a link?=3D20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Aubrey Sparkman=3D20 >>> Enterprise Engineering Signal Integrity Team=3D20 Dell, Inc.=3D20=20 >>> Aubrey_Sparkman@xxxxxxxx=3D20 >>> (512) 723-3592=3D20 >>> "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and=20 >>> thinking what nobody else has thought." - Jonathan Swift >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20 >>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey >>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:36 AM >>> To: Russell S. Dudek Jr.; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? >>> =20 >>> We already have a glass weave solution. Check my column in=20 >>> the April issue of Circuitree magazine. >>> =20 >>> Lee Ritchey >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> >>>> [Original Message] >>>> From: Russell S. Dudek Jr. <rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Date: 9/12/2007 1:10:28 PM >>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: fiber-weave effect alive and well? >>>> >>>> Steve, >>>> =3D20 >>>> I agree, Fiber Weave Effect (FEW) has most certainly been=20 >>>> >>> confirmed by >>> such >>> >>>> research. However, there is a new change in the wind. I=20 >>>> >>> have the=3D20=20 >>> >>>> unique opportunity, as a technical liaison, to enable a=20 >>>> >>> technology=3D20=20 >>> >>>> that may put >>>> >>> an >>> >>>> end to FWE as a consideration in high-speed designs. We=20 >>>> >>> all know that >>> =20 >>> >>>> the crux of the matter is the glass weave and its effect on=20 >>>> >>> localized >>> Er. >>> >>>> Either get ride of the reinforcement layer completely or more=3D20=20 >>>> challenging change the fundamentals of the glass weave fabrication >>>> >>> process (GWFP). >>> >>>> =3D20 >>>> We have taken the more challenging (and fun) approach and have=20 >>>> rocked=3D20 the fundamentals the GWFP. I cannot disclose much the=20 >>>> specifics of=3D20 the technology and our partners in such an=20 >>>> >>> open forum. =20 >>> >>>> However, if=3D20 you are interested learning more feel free=20 >>>> >>> to contact=20 >>> >>>> me and we can=3D20 get the proper NDAs in place to facilitate=20 >>>> >>> such a discussion. >>> >>>> =3D20 >>>> RD >>>> =3D20 >>>> Russell Dudek >>>> Technology Specialist >>>> Compunetics, Inc. >>>> 700 Seco Road >>>> Monroeville, PA 15146 >>>> 412-858-6264 >>>> rdudek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> www.compunetics.com <http://www.compunetics.com/> =3D20 >>>> >>>> To see where no one notices the contrast of white on white is = >>>> >> an=3D20=20 >> >>>> indispensable virtue of infinite potential. >>>> >>>> =3D20 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the=20 >>>> >>> Subject field >>> >>>> or to administer your membership from a web 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=20 >>> List archives are viewable at: =3D20 >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> or at our remote archives: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> =3D20 >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> To unsubscribe from si-list: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >>> =20 >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >>> =20 >>> For help: >>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> List technical documents are available at: >>> http://www.si-list.net >>> =20 >>> List archives are viewable at: =20 >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >>> or at our remote archives: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (408) 884-3985 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 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