Hi Peter, Thanks for the very insightful way of looking at the problem and effectively solving it! It was actually not a homework problem. I am doing a thesis on IC design and wanted to find out about the capability of cmos buffers to drive capacitive loads, and my knowledge of tlines is a bit rusty...been a while since my undergrad days... thanks again! --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Peter Fekete <thefekete@xxxx> wrote: > Dear group_delay, Arpad, =85 > > When I answered to this topic three days ago I thought that I explained enough in my message but apparently not. > > Let's start specifying that any voltage (and current) distribution on a transmission line can be decomposed in two waves. One is the progressive (from source to load) and the other is regressive. > > Anywhere on the line the actual voltages and currents are superpositions of these, more exactly: V=3DV(+) + V(-) and I =3D I (+) - I(-); the voltages add and the currents are substracted > > For both waves the relationship between voltage and current is the well known V(+)=3DZc* I(+) and V(-)=3DZc *I(-) > > The way the problem is formulated (by the way, it looks like a homework problem) implies that we have the progressive wave V(+) defined as trapezoidal and we want the reflected wave ie V(-) > > > > An important detail is that the source is connected to a 50 ohm resistor and then to the line. Assuming the line has a 50 ohm characteristic impedance and the source is perfect results that the V (-) wave returning to the source sees a perfectly terminated line and will not give any more reflections. > > This simplifies things and also the 50 ohm resistor and 50 ohm line will result in half of the source voltage actually going on the line (as group_delay noticed). > > > > To solve the problem in time domain we don't need to use the concept of impedance, although if you like you can talk about it. > > At the capacitor we have I=3DC dV/dt > > Note that these V and I are not the trapezoidal ones, but they are as mentioned V=3DV(+) + V(-) and I =3D I(+) - I(-) and only V(+) and I (+) are trapezoidal. > > This equation gives > > V(+)/Zc - V(-)/Zc =3D C ( dV(+)/dt + dV(-)/dt ) > > V(+) is known so I'll group the terms: > > > > dV(-)/dt + V(-)/CZc=3D dV(+)/dt =96V(+)/CZc > > > > the term C*Zc is the "RC constant" mentioned in some messages =3D tau > > > > so the equation for the unknown V(-) is: > > > > dV(-)/dt + V(-)/tau =3D dV(+)/dt =96 V(+)/tau > > > > I solved this equation quickly for rectangular pulse V(+) and it took a while for the trapezoidal pulse but it is doable. > > > > For a rectangular pulse (rise time=3D0) V(-)=3D[1-2exp(-t/tau)] *0.5 for t=3D(0 to T) ( time origin shifted to when the pulse arrives at the capacitor) and V(-)=3D [1-exp(-T/tau)]*exp[-(t-T)/tau] for t=3D T to infinity > > Note that this gives you V(-)=3D - 0.5 for t=3D0 ie exactly the dip that takes the V(+)=3D0.5 V down to zero as group_delay noticed for zero rise time > > > > For a trapezoidal pulse it is much uglier > > V(-)=3D 0.5/tr * (t-2tau)+tau/tr * exp(-t/tau) for the up ramp t=3D 0 to tr > > And so on =85 > > > > The voltage at the end of the rise time is > > 0.5- tau/tr[1-exp(-tr/tau)] > > if you take the limit for tr ->0 you'll find the previous result =96 0.5 > > however for tr different from zero it is > -0.5 and does not cancel completely the 0.5 of the V(+) , again as noticed by group_delay > > With these V(-) and V(+) propagated one can reconstruct the actual voltage at the capacitor and the source > > The problem can also be solved, as I mentioned earlier, in Laplace or Fourier domains, in which cases one would actually use the capacitor impedance. > > > > Hope this helped in solving the homework problem. > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > group_delay <group_delay@xxxx> wrote: > arpad, > i didn't quite understand some of the characters in your equation. > when you write (finite dV)/(dI =3D 3D 0) =3D 3D> infinite impedance, > what do you mean? > > yes, in my case the input waveform to the tline is a trapezoidal > signal 0V to 1V. the setup is shown below. > > signal source -- 50 ohm resistor -- transmission line-- capacitor to > ground. > > when i monitor the voltage at the junction of the resistor and the > tline, i see it jumps to 0.5V initially which makes sense. However, > when the reflection from the end comes back, it dips down very fast > and then rises in an exponential fashion. The dip down looks > parabolic (2nd order). The dip does go to zero for a zero rise time > input, but it does not go to zero for a finite rise time signal. i > am trying to figure out the best way to calculate the amount of this > dip... > > thanks for you help. > > > > > > --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Muranyi, Arpad" > wrote: > > You will get full reflection, because the impedance > > you need to use for the equation you quoted is the > > small signal (AC) impedance. Referring to my previous > > posting a short time ago, the constant current source > > equivalent during the ramping portion of your trapezoid > > waveform has a (finite dV) / (dI =3D3D 0) =3D3D> infinite impedance. > > > > The question I have for you is this: where do you mean > > that your waveform is trapezoid? At the beginning of > > the T-line, or at the end, where the capacitor is? > > If the first, be prepared for a non trapezoid waveform > > at the capacitor, because the T-line and the cap forms > > an RC circuit, who's response is an exponential waveform. > > If the ramp is faster the RC constant you will see > > an exponential waveform, if it is slower, you will see > > a more or less trapezoid waveform. > > > > I hope this helps, > > > > Arpad > > > =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D > =3D3D=3D3D=3D > > > =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D > =3D3D=3D3D=3D > > =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxx] =3D > > On Behalf Of group_delay > > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 1:48 PM > > To: si-list@xxxx > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: capacitor impedance in time domain > > > > > > hi all, > > what i really want to do is find out how much waveform gets > reflected > > from the end of a lossless transmission line terminated with a > > lossless capacitor, assuming the input waveform is a trapezoidal > > signal. I know this can be computed using: gamma =3D3D (Zl-Zo)/ > (Zl+Zo), > > but this requires you to calculate Zl for the time domain signal. > If I > > wanted to avoid it and use time domain analysis, how would I setup > the > > equation? > > > > thanks, > > chris > > > > > > --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, steve weir wrote: > > > matthias, in the time domain we would solve the differential > > equations for=3D20 > > > the network, or more likely using a computer program we would > solve =3D > > the=3D20 > > > difference equations over a series of discrete time steps. Now > in > > either=3D20 > > > case we could express impedance as dv/dt / di/dt. But I don't > know =3D > > how=3D20 > > > useful it would be towards either visualizing behavior, or > solving the =3D > > > > > equations. Let's take the trapezoidal wave for instance. An =3D > > effective=3D20 > > > impedance is pretty easy to come by on each: the rising, and > falling=3D20 > > > portions of the waveform from the capacitance expression C =3D3D > > i/dv/dt, Z =3D3D=3D20 > > > dv/dt / di/dt =3D3D 1/(dv/dt * C ). The flat portions are > troublesome > > as are=3D20 > > > the vertices, since dv/dt theoretically goes to zero and the > > impedance from=3D20 > > > the formula jumps to an infinite value. Intuition should tell us > > that this=3D20 > > > is wrong, as > > > > coupling capacitors routinely pass high frequency pulses. > > >=3D20 > > > In the frequency domain, we have this nailed. We don't have=3D20 > > > discontinuities at the vertices. The vertices and flat portions > =3D > > follow=3D20 > > > curves formed by the frequency components, and rather than a flat > > section=3D20 > > > containing DC and no HF, quite the opposite is true: the > flatter we > > want=3D20 > > > the pulse tops to be, the higher the frequency content > required. This =3D > > > > > aligns with our intuition. But when we transform the > representation > > back=3D20 > > > to the time domain, those piecewise linear segments are now > curved > > solving=3D20 > > > the discontinuities at the vertices and eliminating the flat > slopes > > with=3D20 > > > theoretically infinite Z between the edges. > > >=3D20 > > > So if someone wanted to look only at the rising and falling > edges, an=3D20 > > > impedance in the time domain is reasonable, and possibly even > > useful. But=3D20 > > > it really gets awkward when dealing with the whole waveform > unless > > we first=3D20 > > > perform frequency limiting operations, most easily performed in > the=3D20 > > > frequency domain. > > >=3D20 > > > I am not an expert on algorithms, so I really can't say from an > error=3D20 > > > analysis and computational efficiency standpoint what is really > the > > best=3D20 > > > way to perform a transient analysis. But in my naivete, I would > be=3D20 > > > inclined to transform everything into the frequency domain, > compute =3D > > the=3D20 > > > solution and transform back. In my feeble mind, this would avoid > > some of=3D20 > > > the discontinuity and convergence problems in SPICE and more > closely=3D20 > > > follows nature. But since people a whole lot better at math > than I > > have=3D20 > > > worked long and hard on those algorithms, I suspect either the=3D20 > > > computational overhead, or error build-up of my naive approach > would =3D > > be=3D20 > > > unacceptably high. Maybe what this world needs is a five cent, > 256 =3D > > bit=3D20 > > > floating point, matrix solver! > > >=3D20 > > > Steve. > > >=3D20 > > > At 10:13 PM 1/26/2005 +0100, Matthias Bergmann wrote: > > > > > > > >Hello, I don`t understand why impedance should be limited to =3D > > Frequency > > > >domain. What impedance are we speaking about ? For example the > > > >characteristicimpedance Z of a transmission line also exists in > > time domain. > > > >If you look along a transmission line, v(t) / i(t) have got > > singularities > > > >(undefined, infinite), these are called short and open ?!?!? > > Furthermore > > > >mostof the simulation programs use the time domain because it > permits > > > >non-linearities. I don`t know how what happens when your > impulse is > > > >trapezoidal, but if it was a rectangular and your load is a > > capacitance, you > > > >are answer would look like an exponential function, with your > > reflection > > > >co-efficient as initial value. Regards, Matthias Bergmann P.S.: > > Yes, use > > > >SPICE or ADS ! _m |---------+--------------------------------- -> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >- > list@xxxx> > > > >-LIST] Re: capacitor impedance in time > > > > > > >domain =10 =10 > 0;&#=3D > > 160;=01 > > > > > > >60I > ;=01=3D > > 60;=10 > > > > | > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------- > ------=3D > > ---- > > > >-- -----------------------------------------| >I could be > > wrong >but > > > >tome >impedance is a concept strongly related to Frequency > domain. > > >>It is > > > >meaningful just in that domain. Absolutely. If you define > impedance =3D > > as > > > >voltage/current, then you run into great difficulties if you > try to > > do it in > > > >the time domain. In general, with any complex impedance, > > v(t)/i(t) has > > > >singularities (undefined, infinite). I consider impedance =3D3D > > v(s)/i(s) or > > > >v(f)/i(f), which makes it a strictly frequency domain parameter. > > Regards, > > > >Andy > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- - > To > > > >unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxx > with 'unsubscribe' > > > >inthe Subject field or to administer your membership from a web > > page, go to: > > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: > > > >si-list-request@xxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ > wiki > > > >page is located at: > > > > > > > =01 > 60;&=3D > > #160; > > > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List =3D > > technical > > > >documents are available at: > > > > > > > =01 > ;=01=3D > > 60;=10 > > > > http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: > > > > > > > &# > 160;=3D > > > > > > > > > ht > tp:/=3D > > /www. > > > >freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: > > > > > > > =01 > ;=01=3D > > 60;=10 > > > > > > > http://g > roup=3D > > s.yah > > > >oo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list > > archives are > > > >viewable at: > > > > > > > &# > 160;=3D > > > > > > > > > ht > tp:/=3D > > /www. > > > >qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > > >To unsubscribe from si-list: > > > >si-list-request@xxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > > > > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > > >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > > > > >For help: > > > >si-list-request@xxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > > >List FAQ wiki page is located at: > > > > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > > > > > > >List technical documents are available at: > > > > http://www.si-list.org > > > > > > > >List archives are viewable at: > > > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > > >or at our remote archives: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > > >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > >=3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- -- > - 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Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > List FAQ wiki page is located at: > http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.org > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu