[SI-LIST] Re: about hfss tdr function
- From: "Alfred P. Neves" <al@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:01:45 -0700
WRT has numerous DesignCon papers and tutorials on 3D EM simulation to
measurement, including calibration and measurement validation on our website.
See the last tutorial "Methods of Improving 3D EM Model Development and
Associated Time/Frequency Domain Measurements" we co-authored with Tektronix
and Anritsu.
Our customers have had issues with EVERY field solver I know of, and in some
cases it was not the user or set up issues - it was the solver, and in many
cases it was measurement, incorrect meshing, wrong loss model or material
extraction, incorrect stack up, etc.,. The problems ranged from VIA fields
appearing inductive where they measured capacitive, simple microstrip
impedances off by 4ohms, huge resonance issues for a simple stripline.
Having said that there we have had good results with both HFSS, CST, and
Simbeor (we had good correspondence with Agilent ADS out to 20GHz several years
ago and expect to repeat the correspondence out to 50GHz fairly soon).
Simbeor has a nifty method of making the material extraction fairly simple, you
still need to include the hooks in your platform and make some good VNA
measurements, but the tool does the dirty work so you don't need to iterate
solutions like before. We very much like Yury's EDA tool and use it
extensively to design our platforms.
We conduct a 1 hour Web seminar that has only one slide of marketing content,
it is all technical and combines methodology of correspondence including
measurement practice using VNA. ping me if your interested.
Products for the Signal Integrity Practitioner
Alfred P. Neves
Chief Technologist
Office: 503-679-2429
www.wildrivertech.com
On Aug 2, 2013, at 8:25 AM, "Ken Cantrell" <ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Ye Tao,
> I have found HFSS to be, as Steve put it, deadly accurate. I think part of
> the issue is that it requires an advanced background in electromagnetics to
> understand what the software is really doing. Understand the mathematics,
> and you will arrive at the correct answer. Do this a thousand times, like
> Steve, Scott, Eric, and other well known contributors to the List, and
> you're on your way. It's just a matter of hard work after that.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of steve weir
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 2:03 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: about hfss tdr function
>
> HFSS is as deadly accurate as the information you supply to it and the
> boundary conditions you establish. There are three answers to every
> high frequency question: The simulation, the measurement, and the cold
> hard truth. It is something of a fine art getting the first two to
> align with the third.
>
> Steve.
> On 8/1/2013 11:37 PM, ye tao wrote:
>> with agilent TDR,this via is 47 ohm,the sim model Dimensions is the real
>> size,I Sliced via and measured.
>> So,I think HFSS TDR is not very exactly,the result of simulation is higher
>> than measure 2~3 ohm,Do you experience such problems?I know increase the
>> antipad can fix it,but how simulate the via impedance,According 53 ohm
>> maybe better?
>> I simulated the trace line use hfss tdr,the result is almost same with
>> test,but the via is different,and I alter window function no improvement.
>>
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>
>
> --
> Steve Weir
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