Sebastian, the design papers Tom referenced showing system measurements by
Steve can be found here:
http://www.x2y.com/bypass.htm#examples ;
Dave Anthony
X2Y
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 10:52 PM
To: sg-listas@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: SI-LIST
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Sebastian. I'm traveling right now and don't have access to those archives. But
look at the work by Steve on the X2Y web page. I think you will find what you
are looking for there.
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 13, 2016 8:13 PM, Sebastian Garcia
<sg-listas@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom,
Could you shed some light on this, providing the specific Steve Weir's
documents you mention, please?
Best regards,
Sebas.
Sebastian Garcia
Slabs Electronics
Buenos Aires - Argentina
+54 911 3865 1770
Tom Dagostino wrote:
Joel
The layout I saw and Steve Weir commented on had the vias so far
away from the capacitor that the measured inductance was dominated
by circuit board traces. Steve fitted about 8 proper layouts
within the confines of the layout that Lee mentioned.
I asked Lee about this and he said the layout was something he
found on the X2Y web site I think it was in about 2007.
Since then X2Y has updated the layout and the Work Steve Weir did
has shown that with fewer X2Y caps the power supply noise was lower
compared to 0402 caps. This was shown with two layouts of FPGAs
running the same code and differing only in the caps used.
My issue here is the dragging out of data that does not represent
current recommended applications as proof anything.
I think I still have one of Steve's boards. His method was well
documented with measurements. He set up unused I/O cells high and
low and attached SMAs to them for ease of measurement. So he showed
the supply as the chip saw it.
Regards
Tom Dagostino
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 13, 2016 11:42 AM, Todd Hubing
<hubing@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't characterize the Zasio paper as bad information. It is a
rare (on this mail list) example of someone supporting an argument
with actual data from a test described well enough that anyone else
could repeat it. Yuriy Shlepnev's app note is another example of
this. Both of these studies demonstrate that, for the
configurations evaluated, two
0402 capacitors are probably a better choice than an X2Y cap. Of
course, it is possible to come up with configurations or test
criteria that favor the X2Y also.
For printed circuit board decoupling, the X2Y via configuration is
not optimum. The two capacitors share a pair of ground vias that
must be relatively close to each other. If the power planes are
more than about
0.5 mm from the board surface, an IDC capacitor or a pair of
two-terminal capacitors can achieve better flux cancelation by
alternating closely spaced power and ground vias. That said, if
you're REALLY concerned about high-frequency decoupling, take Scott
McMorrow's advice and use 0201 caps.
Todd
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Todd H. Hubing
LearnEMC.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 7:00 PM
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx;
vrbanacm@xxxxxxxxxx; joel@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Lee
What was the date was that recommended mounting? Do we still
believe Saturn is the furthest planet from the sun? Has X2Y
changed their recommendations since John did his measurements?Â
Has Steve Weir's work contradicted John's because Steve used the
correct layout? Why are you basing you argument on known bad information?
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 12, 2016 2:27 AM, Lee Ritchey
<leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
measurements.
On our web site, www.speedingedge.com you can download the
article by John Zasio showing comparison of X2Y to 0402
capacitors mounted on the same test PCB following the mounting
instructions given by the vendor.
You can decide for yourself which to use from that data.
This should be the detail that some of you have requested.
Lee Ritchey
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Joel Brown
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 10:05 AM
To: Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: vrbanacm@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
I thought one of the things that make X2Y capacitors lower
inductance is that the current in each terminal flows in opposite
directions causing a cancellation effect. This is from X2Y website:
  - Low inductance due to cancellation effect
I used them on some boards back when they came out. I can't say
they worked better than 0402 capacitors because I did not do any
detailed
You really need to consider the whole PDN system including theparameters.
mounting inductance, spreading inductance, IC package parasitics,
frequency spoectrum of IC switching current, any decoupling that
might be inside the IC package which is often an unknown. I think
this detailed kind of analysis would be nice to do but is rarely
done. IME I have never had a problem just following good design
practices.
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Grasso, Charles <
Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello,Scott's recent input on this re:
Current thinking has it that the PDN performance is only as
good as the first pwb resonance (typically in the few hundreds
of MHZ - I have seen 300 as a commonly used
number) and
that the BGA decoupling is (for the most part) taken care of by
the substrate capacitance.
In other words - it is my understanding that the board
decouplers don't really need to be "high" performers are the
frequencies of interest are (relatively) low.
I'd appreciate the communities thoughts on this.
[Hello Mike - Good to "see" you again!]
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Michael Vrbanac
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 9:42 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
I agree that Steve had this correct. I had some offline
discussions w/Steve back in that timeframe and between that and
the decoupling capacitor/PDN performance optimization research
studies we did at in my EMC design research lab at Compaq on
this topic back in the early 90's, also considering "side
mounted decoupling capacitors" (yes, that format was around
back then) because we were already seeing EMC issues long before
anyone became concerned about PDN performance.
Anyway, Steve and I were in agreement that they worked well
enough but that the layout and placement were absolutely
critical which agrees with
spreading inductance and placement distance. If it matters, we
had the test boards micro-sectioned after the fact to make
absolutely sure that we made no assumptions about mounting
dimensional
practice.IIRC, someone on that team later wrote a paper on part of that
study (not all) but I have since forgotten its title and the
name of fe llow who wrote it. Sorry I cannot remember who but
that was back in the days when my head was handed to me daily
for saying what this forum has rightly understood these days as
good engineering
Anderson'It was heresy back then. BTW, as you might guess, the resultshelps.
of that study back then were in good agreement with most of
what has been posted on here as good design practice for quite
some time. I hope that
'poor'
Michael E. Vrbanac
EMC Forensics, President
On 03/11/2016 10:00 AM, David Anthony wrote:
Lee, the vendors dimensionally detail land pad 'recommendations'X2Y, but stay away from dimensioning specific via layouts.
for
Scroll down to Johanson's 'PCB mounting' tab at this link:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/x2y-filter-decoupling-capain the PDN Bypass applications section, notice the
citor
s#
pcb
Below the land pad dimensions, Johanson shows 'stick' figure
via layouts
'recommended' and
layout depictions, no dimensions. If any vendor sent you, orpreached:
you downloaded a vendor document specifying the poor layout
please send it to me. Steve would not specify that poor layout
as you suggest, these early 2004-05 papers are just a few
examples of the low inductance he
http://www.ipblox.com/pubs/DesignConEast_2005/DesignCon%20East%
Bypass Capacitor Inductance, Data Sheet Simplicity to
Practical Reality
20200
5%
20TF2_ipb.pdf
On Behalf Of Lee Ritchey
Considerations for Capacitor Selection in FPGA Designs
http://www.x2y.com/publications/decoupling/mar21-05.pdf
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:07 AMCharles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson'
To: tom@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson';
cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx;
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit modelvendor. I believe that that layout was specified by Steve.Â
The board layout complied exactly with what was specified by
the
IT looks like what is on his test PCB.
On Behalf Of Tom Dagostino
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 10:19 AMcristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson' <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>;
Anderson'< ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit modelwas incorrect.
Lee you know that board was not the optimal layout. Steve
told you it
Tom Dagostinoleeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tom Dagostino
Teraspeed LabsOn Mar 9, 2016 8:30 AM, Lee Ritchey <
We mounted the X2Y capacitors exactly as specified in the
applications notes provided by the vendor.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Grasso, ;
Charles
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2016 7:46 AM
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; 'Ray
OK).<ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Ray Anderson' <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Hello Lee - What method is used for a capacitor to be
properly mounted? So, if an X2Y capacitor is properly
mounted the <insert metric here> will not improve?
Best Regards
Charles Grasso
Compliance Engineer
Echostar Communications
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974
(t) 3032042974@xxxxxxxxx
(e) charles.grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx
(e2) chasgrasso@xxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lee ;
Ritchey
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 5:44 AM
To: cristian.gozzi@xxxxxxxxx; 'Ray Anderson';
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'Ray Anderson'
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Our tests show that the X2Y capacitor is no better than a
properly mounted
0402 capacitor.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cristian ;
Gozzi
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 10:57 AM
To: Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Ray Anderson <raya@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: X2Y equivalent circuit model
Thanks
it worked ;-)
Regards
Cristian
Il giorno gio 3 mar 2016 alle ore 10:04 Ray Anderson <
ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx> ha scritto:
Cristian-
Johanson Dielectrics has downloadable spice models
available from this web
page:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/x2y-filter-decoupling-ca
pacit
or
s
download link:
http://www.johansondielectrics.com/downloads/JDI_X2Y_H-Spic
e_Fil
es
.z
ip
They should be usable in ADS using the ADS 'Hspice
Compatibility Component' Wizard. (in fact I just confirmed
that they import
for?
-Ray Anderson
Xilinx Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Cristian Gozzi
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 9:07 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] X2Y equivalent circuit model
Hi Si expert
I was looking for a good circuit model for X2Y capacitor to
be used in my ADS circuit simulation
on internet I found this
http://www.x2y.com/bypass/X2Y%20Equivalent%20Circuit%20for%20Models.
pd
f
but when I tried to implemented it, something was wrong The
impedance vs freq. shapes on log/log scale does not seem
correct
can someone give to me any feedback or good reference to
look
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
thanks in advance
Regards
Cristian
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